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Abortion?

Poll ended at February 24th, 2008, 6:16 pm

Abortion?

yes
10
56%
no
8
44%
 
Total votes : 18
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Post July 4th, 2016, 4:47 pm

Re: Abortion?

That article gave me the "I'm not a racist, but..." vibe. Like, "I am not a racist, but I don't like colored people."

The very first thing the article is doing is to say; I AM NOT AGAINST WOMEN AND THEIR RIGHT TO CHOSE, but then gradually goes around and subtly starts saying the very opposite hoping that some people are to stupid to notice.

But the end is priceless. Going for a subtle, "I hope that things will change in favor of my opinion and when it has changed people will judge you horrible!!!!!!!"
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Post July 4th, 2016, 4:52 pm

Re: Abortion?

Mirkprince wrote:A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, I thought it was worth reading for everyone on both sides of this debate:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... march-life


Oh my god, not again. This thread just keeps coming back to life.

After everything that's been said, did you honestly think that link was gonna change people's opinion? What's the point? Sometimes, it's better to let go and move on.
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Post July 5th, 2016, 7:16 am

Re: Abortion?

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Mirkprince wrote:A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, I thought it was worth reading for everyone on both sides of this debate:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... march-life


Oh my god, not again. This thread just keeps coming back to life.

After everything that's been said, did you honestly think that link was gonna change people's opinion? What's the point? Sometimes, it's better to let go and move on.

It's more that I thought it gave a valuable insight into how someone who was strongly pro-Choice came around to the pro-Life point of view. But that being a pro-Life activist in no way makes her 'anti-woman' or 'sexist' at all...
This is a vitally important discussion, it's a topic about which I am incredibly passionate and an issue which I believe is the greatest human rights issue of our time. Should we just 'let it go' and 'move on'? What would have happened if the great activists of the past just 'let things go' and 'moved on'? People change... believe it or not, I'm living proof of that, and it's not like I'm resurrecting this every few days, or shoving these things in peoples faces outside of this thread. It's where it belongs, and if I find an interesting article or viewpoint which seems helpful to the debate then it's not a bad thing to share it.
Also, interestingly enough, I got a message a little while ago from a member on here (I won't name them) who did change their view on the subject thanks to this thread. It was one of the most encouraging messages I've ever received in my life.

@Librarian
I think you may have misread it slightly, she was outlining her shift from the pro-abortion viewpoint to the anti-abortion viewpoint. And no, the end is a warning, we've seen this kind of thing in the past. We as a generation have judged former generations for their misconceptions and miscarriages of justice. Is it not fair game to appeal to the possibility that future generations may well look upon our generation and judge us? I know we have very different views on this, but that was a legitimate point to make.
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Post July 5th, 2016, 9:00 am

Re: Abortion?

Mirkprince wrote:
Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Mirkprince wrote:A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, I thought it was worth reading for everyone on both sides of this debate:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... march-life


Oh my god, not again. This thread just keeps coming back to life.

After everything that's been said, did you honestly think that link was gonna change people's opinion? What's the point? Sometimes, it's better to let go and move on.

It's more that I thought it gave a valuable insight into how someone who was strongly pro-Choice came around to the pro-Life point of view. But that being a pro-Life activist in no way makes her 'anti-woman' or 'sexist' at all...
This is a vitally important discussion, it's a topic about which I am incredibly passionate and an issue which I believe is the greatest human rights issue of our time. Should we just 'let it go' and 'move on'? What would have happened if the great activists of the past just 'let things go' and 'moved on'? People change... believe it or not, I'm living proof of that, and it's not like I'm resurrecting this every few days, or shoving these things in peoples faces outside of this thread. It's where it belongs, and if I find an interesting article or viewpoint which seems helpful to the debate then it's not a bad thing to share it.
Also, interestingly enough, I got a message a little while ago from a member on here (I won't name them) who did change their view on the subject thanks to this thread. It was one of the most encouraging messages I've ever received in my life.


Yeah, but this debate is taking place on a Harry Potter forum. What you write here isn't gonna make much of a difference. It's kind of funny how you think what you're doing here can compare to what real activists have done in the real world. They actually went out and did productive things. They protested, spoke up and suffered horrible consequences for it, like getting beaten up and even killed. But if you think having the same repetitive conversation on a forum with the same people over and over again, trying to change the way they think is what being an "activist" is like, then fine, keep doing that. Hopefully, one day you'll learn the difference between being passionate about something and shoving you beliefs down everyone's throats--which is what you always do in this thread.

Also, abortion isn't the greatest human rights issue in the world. What about black people's human rights which are challenged on a daily basis? What about the continuous systematic racism and oppression that is still going on today? What about the people who are getting murdered every day because of how easy it is to get a gun? What about terrorism that is happening everywhere? But oh wait..republicans don't give a shit about black lives or lowering gun violence or any of the other things I mentioned. I've seen the way republicans respond every time an unarmed black person is killed again by a cop or whenever a new mass shooting occurs. You guys are the biggest hypocrites because you claim to value human life, but I've seen the way you guys treat humans who are outside of the womb.

You say you are against murdering little humans (abortion) and value life so much. You repeatedly debate about abortion. But for someone who is passionate about human rights, you haven't been as passionate about the ongoing killings of people outside of the womb and about racism and oppression. Do Eric Garner and Michael Brown, Sandra Bland and Tamir Rice etc., not matter as much? Do the victims of the Orlando shootings, Paris shootings, Brussels shootings etc. not matter as much?

I remember that you called welfare a travesty--which is one of then most ignorant and insensitive things you've ever written. This stuck in my head for some reason..I guess because it really shocked me. You clearly do not understand why most people are on welfare, that most of them don't even wanna be on it, and why it is people's moral obligation to help those in need. Anyone can end up on welfare, not just the stereotypes you have in your head. And the reason I brought this up is because, since you want women and girls to give birth instead of aborting their babies, who's gonna pay for the babies' food, diapers, clothes, toys and later school and college, if the mothers are teens or poor women? You have said that welfare is a travesty and that people who work hard shouldn't have to pay for people who haven't worked as hard (because that's definitely why so many people are on welfare, because they're lazy...typical republican misconception :roll: , so who's gonna help these girls, women, and babies/children? What's your plan?
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Post July 5th, 2016, 1:23 pm

Re: Abortion?

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Mirkprince wrote:
Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Mirkprince wrote:A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, I thought it was worth reading for everyone on both sides of this debate:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... march-life


Oh my god, not again. This thread just keeps coming back to life.

After everything that's been said, did you honestly think that link was gonna change people's opinion? What's the point? Sometimes, it's better to let go and move on.

It's more that I thought it gave a valuable insight into how someone who was strongly pro-Choice came around to the pro-Life point of view. But that being a pro-Life activist in no way makes her 'anti-woman' or 'sexist' at all...
This is a vitally important discussion, it's a topic about which I am incredibly passionate and an issue which I believe is the greatest human rights issue of our time. Should we just 'let it go' and 'move on'? What would have happened if the great activists of the past just 'let things go' and 'moved on'? People change... believe it or not, I'm living proof of that, and it's not like I'm resurrecting this every few days, or shoving these things in peoples faces outside of this thread. It's where it belongs, and if I find an interesting article or viewpoint which seems helpful to the debate then it's not a bad thing to share it.
Also, interestingly enough, I got a message a little while ago from a member on here (I won't name them) who did change their view on the subject thanks to this thread. It was one of the most encouraging messages I've ever received in my life.


Yeah, but this debate is taking place on a Harry Potter forum. What you write here isn't gonna make much of a difference. It's kind of funny how you think what you're doing here can compare to what real activists have done in the real world. They actually went out and did productive things. They protested, spoke up and suffered horrible consequences for it, like getting beaten up and even killed. But if you think having the same repetitive conversation on a forum with the same people over and over again, trying to change the way they think is what being an "activist" is like, then fine, keep doing that. Hopefully, one day you'll learn the difference between being passionate about something and shoving you beliefs down everyone's throats--which is what you always do in this thread.

Also, abortion isn't the greatest human rights issue in the world. What about black people's human rights which are challenged on a daily basis? What about the continuous systematic racism and oppression that is still going on today? What about the people who are getting murdered every day because of how easy it is to get a gun? What about terrorism that is happening everywhere? But oh wait..republicans don't give a shit about black lives or lowering gun violence or any of the other things I mentioned. I've seen the way republicans respond every time an unarmed black person is killed again by a cop or whenever a new mass shooting occurs. You guys are the biggest hypocrites because you claim to value human life, but I've seen the way you guys treat humans who are outside of the womb.

You say you are against murdering little humans (abortion) and value life so much. You repeatedly debate about abortion. But for someone who is passionate about human rights, you haven't been as passionate about the ongoing killings of people outside of the womb and about racism and oppression. Do Eric Garner and Michael Brown, Sandra Bland and Tamir Rice etc., not matter as much? Do the victims of the Orlando shootings, Paris shootings, Brussels shootings etc. not matter as much?

I remember that you called welfare a travesty--which is one of then most ignorant and insensitive things you've ever written. This stuck in my head for some reason..I guess because it really shocked me. You clearly do not understand why most people are on welfare, that most of them don't even wanna be on it, and why it is people's moral obligation to help those in need. Anyone can end up on welfare, not just the stereotypes you have in your head. And the reason I brought this up is because, since you want women and girls to give birth instead of aborting their babies, who's gonna pay for the babies' food, diapers, clothes, toys and later school and college, if the mothers are teens or poor women? You have said that welfare is a travesty and that people who work hard shouldn't have to pay for people who haven't worked as hard (because that's definitely why so many people are on welfare, because they're lazy...typical republican misconception :roll: , so who's gonna help these girls, women, and babies/children? What's your plan?

Oh flip... Okay, so I wrote a super long reply but then it got deleted somehow. A little confused as to how but anyways... here goes again:
1. I'm not a Republican, I'm not even American. Politically I'd call myself a moderate-conservative.
2. I am completely for gun legislation, I have stood behind it consistently for the past 2 years or so, I too get very frustrated at the lack of true pro-Life sentiment on the 'right' of politics.
3. Just because I'm pro-Life it doesn't mean you have the right to throw me into the same box as the Ted Cruzes of the world. I may agree with the republicans on some issues, but that's where it ends. I hate the two party system and I hate the single minded approach of most politicians on both sides.
4. I'm in High School still. Currently trying to finish up my last few credits, I'm sorry I haven't gone out and been put in prison yet. Right now I believe that any medium is worth using to try and protest what I see as an absolute travesty of human rights. I'm not likening myself to the greats of Civil Rights movements. I'm no Biko, Mandela, King or Gandhi, I am merely trying to help a cause for which I am passionate.
5. I am NOT shoving my views down peoples throats, I'm keeping them to the designated thread. Nobody is forcing you to read this are they? Nope. Just because my views disagree with yours that doesn't mean that I'm 'shoving my views down your throat'.
6. Do you think I don't care about the people who died in those shootings? I was devastated... utterly sickened when I woke up to the radio playing the news of the Paris attacks. I could not believe my eyes, and I was utterly horrified and disgusted by the Orlando shootings. Just because I do not dedicate the same amount of time and energy (on here, I actually do a fair amount of writing about gun control etc. in other places) about these things it doesn't mean I care less about these people. So think before you accuse please. You just assume I hold all these other views because I hold one or two that you don't like.
7. I don't ever remember saying that welfare is a travesty, if I did then I apologize deeply. I do not think that anymore, even IF I did write it at the time. I merely believe that welfare should be cleverly distributed, targeted better and reformed. Just because I believe in welfare reform it doesn't mean I believe in welfare abolition. Also just to clarify something, at the time we had that little Capitalism vs Socialism debate I had just completed an AP Economics course, I was on fire with the knowledge I'd acquired and wanted to see why other people didn't agree with some of the principles I was taught. Upon arguing with people I found that while the principles and economic theories are certainly sound they are far from perfect. I have grown to understand the need for strong welfare and at least a moderately strong public sector. Though I am still a moderate free-market capitalist, I do not subscribe wholly and completely to the theories espoused by die hards. I believe in Welfare and I believe in healthcare and if possible without bankrupting the state, free education.
8. Never, ever assume I don't care about these people. Just because I do not think they should be legally allowed to abort their children it doesn't mean that I cannot sympathize with them. You think I don't understand poverty? Thanks to my parents I have never wanted for anything, because my dad works incredibly hard... very long hours and short holidays I can live a life of comfort and security. But I come from a country where just walking out the front door you are confronted with the most desperate of poverty, people who can not even afford to eat. People so desperate that they would eat literally anything you gave them. Street children who are abused and used by evil people to beg for them. I see the stark face of suffering and rock bottom poverty on an almost daily basis. And do you know what? My heart breaks. My heart breaks because I can't do more for them, I can not stand seeing people suffering. Here it is a general rule that you don't give money to beggers, why? Because it increases the likelihood of street rings where the children are abused and used even more than they already are. Why do I believe in the economic principles I do? Because I truly believe that the way to stop this stuff from being a reality is to raise the standard of living across the board. I do not believe in these things because I think they'll benefit me... in fact they most likely won't as I'm probably going to be working in a government agency one-day (if all goes according to plan). But I think they can help the lowest of people.
9. I am desperate to help these people, I hate the typical far-right attitude to feminism, social injustice and welfare. It breaks my heart that politicians just don't seem to care. I believe that single mothers should be the top of welfare priorities, that there should be no need for these women to feel scared and trapped into having abortions as is so often the case.
10. Do you know what I want to dedicate my life to? Providing legal support for people who can't afford it. Here in Malawi literally thousands upon thousands of people are turned away because our public legal office is staffed by only 8 lawyers and is terribly underfunded. I want to help people with nothing still be able to take their concerns to a court of law, because I hate injustice and I hate social inequality. What I'm trying to show you is that I can not stand the continued systematic racism in places like the US, I can't stand the police brutality. But that doesn't mean that just because I am pro-social justice and pro-reasonable welfare I have to also be pro-Choice. I'm not bound, or constrained to one school of thought or another.

Sorry for the long reply. But I was rather shocked by your perception of me, and I was crushed to learn that I'd come across so insensitively at times. For which I apologize. But Please, before you go off on a rant like that again... take the time to consider the possibility that just because I agree with a certain part of a certain type of ideology, it doesn't mean I subscribe to all theories contained within that ideology. I am a moderate, I have things I agree with across the political spectrum. Which means I'm used to both sides hating my guts, but at least have the foresight to see that I am not just another single-minded republican robot.
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Post July 5th, 2016, 2:17 pm

Re: Abortion?

Mirkprince wrote:Oh flip... Okay, so I wrote a super long reply but then it got deleted somehow. A little confused as to how but anyways... here goes again:
1. I'm not a Republican, I'm not even American. Politically I'd call myself a moderate-conservative.
2. I am completely for gun legislation, I have stood behind it consistently for the past 2 years or so, I too get very frustrated at the lack of true pro-Life sentiment on the 'right' of politics.
3. Just because I'm pro-Life it doesn't mean you have the right to throw me into the same box as the Ted Cruzes of the world. I may agree with the republicans on some issues, but that's where it ends. I hate the two party system and I hate the single minded approach of most politicians on both sides.
4. I'm in High School still. Currently trying to finish up my last few credits, I'm sorry I haven't gone out and been put in prison yet. Right now I believe that any medium is worth using to try and protest what I see as an absolute travesty of human rights. I'm not likening myself to the greats of Civil Rights movements. I'm no Biko, Mandela, King or Gandhi, I am merely trying to help a cause for which I am passionate.
5. I am NOT shoving my views down peoples throats, I'm keeping them to the designated thread. Nobody is forcing you to read this are they? Nope. Just because my views disagree with yours that doesn't mean that I'm 'shoving my views down your throat'.
6. Do you think I don't care about the people who died in those shootings? I was devastated... utterly sickened when I woke up to the radio playing the news of the Paris attacks. I could not believe my eyes, and I was utterly horrified and disgusted by the Orlando shootings. Just because I do not dedicate the same amount of time and energy (on here, I actually do a fair amount of writing about gun control etc. in other places) about these things it doesn't mean I care less about these people. So think before you accuse please. You just assume I hold all these other views because I hold one or two that you don't like.
7. I don't ever remember saying that welfare is a travesty, if I did then I apologize deeply. I do not think that anymore, even IF I did write it at the time. I merely believe that welfare should be cleverly distributed, targeted better and reformed. Just because I believe in welfare reform it doesn't mean I believe in welfare abolition. Also just to clarify something, at the time we had that little Capitalism vs Socialism debate I had just completed an AP Economics course, I was on fire with the knowledge I'd acquired and wanted to see why other people didn't agree with some of the principles I was taught. Upon arguing with people I found that while the principles and economic theories are certainly sound they are far from perfect. I have grown to understand the need for strong welfare and at least a moderately strong public sector. Though I am still a moderate free-market capitalist, I do not subscribe wholly and completely to the theories espoused by die hards. I believe in Welfare and I believe in healthcare and if possible without bankrupting the state, free education.
8. Never, ever assume I don't care about these people. Just because I do not think they should be legally allowed to abort their children it doesn't mean that I cannot sympathize with them. You think I don't understand poverty? Thanks to my parents I have never wanted for anything, because my dad works incredibly hard... very long hours and short holidays I can live a life of comfort and security. But I come from a country where just walking out the front door you are confronted with the most desperate of poverty, people who can not even afford to eat. People so desperate that they would eat literally anything you gave them. Street children who are abused and used by evil people to beg for them. I see the stark face of suffering and rock bottom poverty on an almost daily basis. And do you know what? My heart breaks. My heart breaks because I can't do more for them, I can not stand seeing people suffering. Here it is a general rule that you don't give money to beggers, why? Because it increases the likelihood of street rings where the children are abused and used even more than they already are. Why do I believe in the economic principles I do? Because I truly believe that the way to stop this stuff from being a reality is to raise the standard of living across the board. I do not believe in these things because I think they'll benefit me... in fact they most likely won't as I'm probably going to be working in a government agency one-day (if all goes according to plan). But I think they can help the lowest of people.
9. I am desperate to help these people, I hate the typical far-right attitude to feminism, social injustice and welfare. It breaks my heart that politicians just don't seem to care. I believe that single mothers should be the top of welfare priorities, that there should be no need for these women to feel scared and trapped into having abortions as is so often the case.
10. Do you know what I want to dedicate my life to? Providing legal support for people who can't afford it. Here in Malawi literally thousands upon thousands of people are turned away because our public legal office is staffed by only 8 lawyers and is terribly underfunded. I want to help people with nothing still be able to take their concerns to a court of law, because I hate injustice and I hate social inequality. What I'm trying to show you is that I can not stand the continued systematic racism in places like the US, I can't stand the police brutality. But that doesn't mean that just because I am pro-social justice and pro-reasonable welfare I have to also be pro-Choice. I'm not bound, or constrained to one school of thought or another.

Sorry for the long reply. But I was rather shocked by your perception of me, and I was crushed to learn that I'd come across so insensitively at times. For which I apologize. But Please, before you go off on a rant like that again... take the time to consider the possibility that just because I agree with a certain part of a certain type of ideology, it doesn't mean I subscribe to all theories contained within that ideology. I am a moderate, I have things I agree with across the political spectrum. Which means I'm used to both sides hating my guts, but at least have the foresight to see that I am not just another single-minded republican robot.


Ok, now I see that you aren't really the way I thought you were. But I'll be honest with you, you do come across as extremely republican/conservative except for your opinions on immigration and gun control. You were very supportive of a republican presidential candidate, and up until I read your reply, all I knew about your opinions on capitalism and welfare was what I had read and your previous posts about these topics sounded very very typically conservative/republican. And you didn't seem to care or want to understand that capitalism doesn't work in every single aspect of this world (it does work in some aspects, though) and that it has contributed to inequality--which is also a negative conservative trait because many conservatives (not all, of course) don't really care about inequality. I'm glad you don't have such a harsh opinion on welfare, because that post you made a long time ago made you look very cold in my eyes, because I am a Social Democrat, and you know how we feel about welfare and helping people. Another reason that you came across as insensitive was because you believe a terminally ill baby should suffer immensely from the moment they are born until they die, because apparently life is worth living even in that state. Do you remember that debate? When I told you the woman who aborted her baby because it had an illness that would make it suffer until it died within two years? Many of the members on this site were also trying to make you understand why this type of abortion isn't wrong and should be legal. Your refusal to understand contributed to making you look even more like a stereotypical insensitive conservative/republican. So, it's not like I drew my conclusions about you based on nothing.

Now for the activism part of our argument. Your reply was a little sarcastic, so I won't take it 100% serious, but I want to clarify what I meant: Mirkprince, having the same conversation over and over again with the same people isn't activism and it doesn't serve a purpose other than to argue and piss people off and get pissed off too. Get involved in a pro-life organization or if there isn't one where you live, create one yourself. Start a blog or a Facebook group or a Twitter account about pro-life. That is activism. There are easy ways to be an activist while still being a teen in High School. What you're doing here isn't activism. And yes, you are shoving your beliefs down people's throats, because you keep repeating that abortion is murder to people you know are pro-choice and you keep listing your reasons as to why it is murder, even though you know how they feel and that they'll never change their minds.

It did piss me off a little when you called abortion the greatest human rights issue of our time, because it is simply not that. There's oppression going on, racism, terrorism etc.. And since you seem to be so passionate about human rights, it doesn't make sense for you to not be as passionate about ALL aspects of human rights issues. Though it might have looked like I was specifically writing to you when I wrote that in my previous reply, I was mostly pointing out the flaws in many conservative people's pro-life opinions and activism--since conservatives tend to not care as much about racism and oppression and gun control. Some even claim racism is dead lol.
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Post July 5th, 2016, 5:25 pm

Re: Abortion?

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Mirkprince wrote:Oh flip... Okay, so I wrote a super long reply but then it got deleted somehow. A little confused as to how but anyways... here goes again:
1. I'm not a Republican, I'm not even American. Politically I'd call myself a moderate-conservative.
2. I am completely for gun legislation, I have stood behind it consistently for the past 2 years or so, I too get very frustrated at the lack of true pro-Life sentiment on the 'right' of politics.
3. Just because I'm pro-Life it doesn't mean you have the right to throw me into the same box as the Ted Cruzes of the world. I may agree with the republicans on some issues, but that's where it ends. I hate the two party system and I hate the single minded approach of most politicians on both sides.
4. I'm in High School still. Currently trying to finish up my last few credits, I'm sorry I haven't gone out and been put in prison yet. Right now I believe that any medium is worth using to try and protest what I see as an absolute travesty of human rights. I'm not likening myself to the greats of Civil Rights movements. I'm no Biko, Mandela, King or Gandhi, I am merely trying to help a cause for which I am passionate.
5. I am NOT shoving my views down peoples throats, I'm keeping them to the designated thread. Nobody is forcing you to read this are they? Nope. Just because my views disagree with yours that doesn't mean that I'm 'shoving my views down your throat'.
6. Do you think I don't care about the people who died in those shootings? I was devastated... utterly sickened when I woke up to the radio playing the news of the Paris attacks. I could not believe my eyes, and I was utterly horrified and disgusted by the Orlando shootings. Just because I do not dedicate the same amount of time and energy (on here, I actually do a fair amount of writing about gun control etc. in other places) about these things it doesn't mean I care less about these people. So think before you accuse please. You just assume I hold all these other views because I hold one or two that you don't like.
7. I don't ever remember saying that welfare is a travesty, if I did then I apologize deeply. I do not think that anymore, even IF I did write it at the time. I merely believe that welfare should be cleverly distributed, targeted better and reformed. Just because I believe in welfare reform it doesn't mean I believe in welfare abolition. Also just to clarify something, at the time we had that little Capitalism vs Socialism debate I had just completed an AP Economics course, I was on fire with the knowledge I'd acquired and wanted to see why other people didn't agree with some of the principles I was taught. Upon arguing with people I found that while the principles and economic theories are certainly sound they are far from perfect. I have grown to understand the need for strong welfare and at least a moderately strong public sector. Though I am still a moderate free-market capitalist, I do not subscribe wholly and completely to the theories espoused by die hards. I believe in Welfare and I believe in healthcare and if possible without bankrupting the state, free education.
8. Never, ever assume I don't care about these people. Just because I do not think they should be legally allowed to abort their children it doesn't mean that I cannot sympathize with them. You think I don't understand poverty? Thanks to my parents I have never wanted for anything, because my dad works incredibly hard... very long hours and short holidays I can live a life of comfort and security. But I come from a country where just walking out the front door you are confronted with the most desperate of poverty, people who can not even afford to eat. People so desperate that they would eat literally anything you gave them. Street children who are abused and used by evil people to beg for them. I see the stark face of suffering and rock bottom poverty on an almost daily basis. And do you know what? My heart breaks. My heart breaks because I can't do more for them, I can not stand seeing people suffering. Here it is a general rule that you don't give money to beggers, why? Because it increases the likelihood of street rings where the children are abused and used even more than they already are. Why do I believe in the economic principles I do? Because I truly believe that the way to stop this stuff from being a reality is to raise the standard of living across the board. I do not believe in these things because I think they'll benefit me... in fact they most likely won't as I'm probably going to be working in a government agency one-day (if all goes according to plan). But I think they can help the lowest of people.
9. I am desperate to help these people, I hate the typical far-right attitude to feminism, social injustice and welfare. It breaks my heart that politicians just don't seem to care. I believe that single mothers should be the top of welfare priorities, that there should be no need for these women to feel scared and trapped into having abortions as is so often the case.
10. Do you know what I want to dedicate my life to? Providing legal support for people who can't afford it. Here in Malawi literally thousands upon thousands of people are turned away because our public legal office is staffed by only 8 lawyers and is terribly underfunded. I want to help people with nothing still be able to take their concerns to a court of law, because I hate injustice and I hate social inequality. What I'm trying to show you is that I can not stand the continued systematic racism in places like the US, I can't stand the police brutality. But that doesn't mean that just because I am pro-social justice and pro-reasonable welfare I have to also be pro-Choice. I'm not bound, or constrained to one school of thought or another.

Sorry for the long reply. But I was rather shocked by your perception of me, and I was crushed to learn that I'd come across so insensitively at times. For which I apologize. But Please, before you go off on a rant like that again... take the time to consider the possibility that just because I agree with a certain part of a certain type of ideology, it doesn't mean I subscribe to all theories contained within that ideology. I am a moderate, I have things I agree with across the political spectrum. Which means I'm used to both sides hating my guts, but at least have the foresight to see that I am not just another single-minded republican robot.


Ok, now I see that you aren't really the way I thought you were. But I'll be honest with you, you do come across as extremely republican/conservative except for your opinions on immigration and gun control. You were very supportive of a republican presidential candidate, and up until I read your reply, all I knew about your opinions on capitalism and welfare was what I had read and your previous posts about these topics sounded very very typically conservative/republican. And you didn't seem to care or want to understand that capitalism doesn't work in every single aspect of this world (it does work in some aspects, though) and that it has contributed to inequality--which is also a negative conservative trait because many conservatives (not all, of course) don't really care about inequality. I'm glad you don't have such a harsh opinion on welfare, because that post you made a long time ago made you look very cold in my eyes, because I am a Social Democrat, and you know how we feel about welfare and helping people. Another reason that you came across as insensitive was because you believe a terminally ill baby should suffer immensely from the moment they are born until they die, because apparently life is worth living even in that state. Do you remember that debate? When I told you the woman who aborted her baby because it had an illness that would make it suffer until it died within two years? Many of the members on this site were also trying to make you understand why this type of abortion isn't wrong and should be legal. Your refusal to understand contributed to making you look even more like a stereotypical insensitive conservative/republican. So, it's not like I drew my conclusions about you based on nothing.

Now for the activism part of our argument. Your reply was a little sarcastic, so I won't take it 100% serious, but I want to clarify what I meant: Mirkprince, having the same conversation over and over again with the same people isn't activism and it doesn't serve a purpose other than to argue and piss people off and get pissed off too. Get involved in a pro-life organization or if there isn't one where you live, create one yourself. Start a blog or a Facebook group or a Twitter account about pro-life. That is activism. There are easy ways to be an activist while still being a teen in High School. What you're doing here isn't activism. And yes, you are shoving your beliefs down people's throats, because you keep repeating that abortion is murder to people you know are pro-choice and you keep listing your reasons as to why it is murder, even though you know how they feel and that they'll never change their minds.

It did piss me off a little when you called abortion the greatest human rights issue of our time, because it is simply not that. There's oppression going on, racism, terrorism etc.. And since you seem to be so passionate about human rights, it doesn't make sense for you to not be as passionate about ALL aspects of human rights issues. Though it might have looked like I was specifically writing to you when I wrote that in my previous reply, I was mostly pointing out the flaws in many conservative people's pro-life opinions and activism--since conservatives tend to not care as much about racism and oppression and gun control. Some even claim racism is dead lol.

Okey dokey,

1. "But I'll be honest with you, you do come across as extremely republican/conservative except for your opinions on immigration and gun control. You were very supportive of a republican presidential candidate,"
I supported Bush, because I thought he was the most moderate candidate out there. Someone who would work across the aisle and actually get stuff done. Not because I liked everything about him, or because I thought he was a particularly great candidate. I just thought he was the best option of a bad bunch.

2. "And you didn't seem to care or want to understand that capitalism doesn't work in every single aspect of this world (it does work in some aspects, though) and that it has contributed to inequality--which is also a negative conservative trait because many conservatives (not all, of course) don't really care about inequality."
True, I didn't like admitting that capitalism didn't have all the answers... that's changed and it was a learning curve for me. I think you may actually have quite a jaded view of conservatives though, I have many, many conservative friends (in fact, the majority of my conservative friends) who care deeply for the poor and they hate inequality, in fact many of them have dedicated their lives to fighting inequality. They just have a different view on how inequality is to be combated, they are often looking at the issue through a broader economic perspective. While I disagree with them hugely on allot of these things, I respect their opinions. As I respect the opinions of those on the other side of the argument.
3. "Do you remember that debate? When I told you the woman who aborted her baby because it had an illness that would make it suffer until it died within two years? Many of the members on this site were also trying to make you understand why this type of abortion isn't wrong and should be legal"
Let me ask you this. If I believed that a disabled babies life was less valuable than a fully functioning babies life would I be truly pro-Life? Would I be being consistent? NO. I wouldn't be, it'd be less consistent by far than supporting the pro-Life cause and supporting free gun ownership.
4. "So, it's not like I drew my conclusions about you based on nothing."
No but you made them based on very little, and you extrapolated far beyond the reasonable scope. I understand your frustration currently with the conservative right, BUT please don't throw everyone into the same basket, there are many extremely intelligent, kind, caring and thoughtful people who are right-conservatives and that in no way diminishes the value of their opinions or their humanity.
5. On your activism point:
PF is just a tiny bit of what I do, the reality is that on PF I argue more for fun and for practice than anything else. I use twitter, Facebook and I have a blog which I dedicate to writing about my political opinions etc. I do not believe for a second that what happens here is meaningless or worthless, the reason is that a little while ago I received one of the most encouraging messages of my life from a fellow member who had been following this thread. That member said that my arguments and the arguments of someone else at the time, had changed their viewpoint entirely just from the arguments presented here. It was an emotional experience seeing something I wrote make a difference, I know people can change as I have changed an unbelievable amount in the past several years.
6. "It did piss me off a little when you called abortion the greatest human rights issue of our time, because it is simply not that. There's oppression going on, racism, terrorism etc.. And since you seem to be so passionate about human rights, it doesn't make sense for you to not be as passionate about ALL aspects of human rights issues. Though it might have looked like I was specifically writing to you when I wrote that in my previous reply, I was mostly pointing out the flaws in many conservative people's pro-life opinions and activism--since conservatives tend to not care as much about racism and oppression and gun control. Some even claim racism is dead lol."
I disagree. A loss of life that amounts to at least 2,800 A DAY! Is a greater travesty than anything else being suffered on earth right now. I hate oppression, I hate racism and terrorism as well. I am passionate about all these aspects... but I don't devote as much time to them as I do to the Abortion issue, partly because I believe that Abortion is the single greatest human rights issue of our day. Because I believe that the right to life is the most fundamental right that a human can possess. Therefore the loss of over 2,800 lives daily is the greatest travesty to that most valuable right.
My mum grew up in Apartheid South Africa and my dad in Rhodesia... I understand the brutal reality of racial oppression, racism and deep seated inequality. Because I face up to it very often, South Africa is still a country that is torn by deep racial divides (it's where my citizenship is and where my extended family and some of my siblings live). So I do truly see the damaging effects of racism and institutionalized racial oppression and it breaks my heart.
I've learned to admit when I'm wrong, I am constantly reviewing and re-defining my views as I search for truth and understanding. I have changed my views on climate change, gun control, immigration, welfare and capitalism/socialism a HUGE amount. But I have yet to find a single argument that can even come close to shaking my dedication to this cause, that is not for lack of an open mind or lack of true searching. I've read the majority of arguments on both sides.
But if I do not stand up for my convictions then what sort of man am I? If I do not have the courage to turn against the status quo when I feel it contradicts the deepest values I hold and the most baseline morality to which I cling, how then can I call myself someone worthy of even the most minuscule amount of respect?
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Post July 5th, 2016, 7:00 pm

Re: Abortion?

Mirkprince wrote:I think you may actually have quite a jaded view of conservatives though, I have many, many conservative friends (in fact, the majority of my conservative friends) who care deeply for the poor and they hate inequality, in fact many of them have dedicated their lives to fighting inequality. They just have a different view on how inequality is to be combated, they are often looking at the issue through a broader economic perspective. While I disagree with them hugely on allot of these things, I respect their opinions. As I respect the opinions of those on the other side of the argument.

BUT please don't throw everyone into the same basket, there are many extremely intelligent, kind, caring and thoughtful people who are right-conservatives and that in no way diminishes the value of their opinions or their humanity.


I do my best not to generalize conservatives, but they make it pretty hard for me not to when I see and hear the things they write and say. Many seem to be detached from reality or just plain ignorant about certain things, while others only seem to see the surface of issues and fail to understand the many layers and causes of social, financial and political issues. I'll be honest, even though we've been arguing it's been nice to read some of the things you've written, because you are a conservative who seems to have more empathy and you seem to understand certain things.


Mirkprince wrote:5. On your activism point:
PF is just a tiny bit of what I do, the reality is that on PF I argue more for fun and for practice than anything else. I use twitter, Facebook and I have a blog which I dedicate to writing about my political opinions etc. I do not believe for a second that what happens here is meaningless or worthless, the reason is that a little while ago I received one of the most encouraging messages of my life from a fellow member who had been following this thread. That member said that my arguments and the arguments of someone else at the time, had changed their viewpoint entirely just from the arguments presented here. It was an emotional experience seeing something I wrote make a difference, I know people can change as I have changed an unbelievable amount in the past several years.


It's cool that you have a blog and that you use Twitter and Facebook for your activism.
I get that it's encouraging for you that you received a pm from a fellow member about how you changed their opinion. But still...that's not a reason to drag things out and continuously argue with the same people. Your old posts will always be available for people to read if they wanna understand both sides of the debate. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Mirkprince wrote:I disagree. A loss of life that amounts to at least 2,800 A DAY! Is a greater travesty than anything else being suffered on earth right now. I hate oppression, I hate racism and terrorism as well. I am passionate about all these aspects... but I don't devote as much time to them as I do to the Abortion issue, partly because I believe that Abortion is the single greatest human rights issue of our day. Because I believe that the right to life is the most fundamental right that a human can possess. Therefore the loss of over 2,800 lives daily is the greatest travesty to that most valuable right.
My mum grew up in Apartheid South Africa and my dad in Rhodesia... I understand the brutal reality of racial oppression, racism and deep seated inequality. Because I face up to it very often, South Africa is still a country that is torn by deep racial divides (it's where my citizenship is and where my extended family and some of my siblings live). So I do truly see the damaging effects of racism and institutionalized racial oppression and it breaks my heart.


You are wrong about it being the greatest travesty that's being suffered on earth. This doesn't compare to conscious, living people who go through life being treated horribly for being born in the "wrong" skin color, the "wrong" gender, or for having the "wrong" sexual orientation. None of this compares to the life long oppression many people face. None of this compares to the pain family members and friends feel when someone they love has become another victim of unnecessary gun violence and police brutality. This doesn't compare to how girls and women suffer in third world countries simply for being female. Their suffering is greater and longer and more difficult than the suffering that you are most passionate about. This is another topic we'll have to agree to disagree on.


Mirkprince wrote:I've learned to admit when I'm wrong, I am constantly reviewing and re-defining my views as I search for truth and understanding. I have changed my views on climate change, gun control, immigration, welfare and capitalism/socialism a HUGE amount. But I have yet to find a single argument that can even come close to shaking my dedication to this cause, that is not for lack of an open mind or lack of true searching. I've read the majority of arguments on both sides.
But if I do not stand up for my convictions then what sort of man am I? If I do not have the courage to turn against the status quo when I feel it contradicts the deepest values I hold and the most baseline morality to which I cling, how then can I call myself someone worthy of even the most minuscule amount of respect?


Sometimes I forget that you're a teenager in High School who's still learning about life and the way the world is. To be honest, I knew a lot less than you do, when I was your age. So, I'm pretty impressed with how much time you've put into learning. I know we won't ever agree on everything, but it's cool to see how your views on the topics you've stated have changed. You seem to have a very compassionate heart.

Even though I have already found the political ideology that suits me best, I am still, just like you, learning and changing, and I'm 22 lol. I remember your thread about climate change and how it was difficult for you to change your opinion because of they way you've been raised. I understand that, and even though I might seem pretty harsh toward you sometimes, I do understand you because we have similar backgrounds and I know how hard it is to change or completely dump a belief or opinion you've had that your parents taught you.

Now, the last thing I want to add is that I never meant that you should become pro-choice. Sometimes I've gotten caught up in certain aspects of the debate, and maybe it seemed like I was trying to make you switch beliefs or that I was completely pro-choice. But my main reason for debating here has been to point out the flaws in the pro-life ideology. I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice. I'm somewhere in between because this issue is just too complex and far from black and white. Since you already had all your pro-life info and had detected the flaws in the pro-choice ideology, I decided to bring up reasons for why it doesn't work to be pro-life either. I have no problem with you being against abortion, there are just some things about it that just don't work, in my opinion. When I wrote about aborting a baby who is terminally ill and will suffer and then die in a few years, I didn't mean that it's life is less valuable. I am, for example, pro euthanasia because I don't believe people should suffer immensely when they already have a death sentence. The baby we spoke about wasn't aborted because it's life would be "less valuable" but because its parents didn't want it to suffer. I don't think it's right to force a baby to suffer like that and not get to enjoy life and play because they're in too much pain and always in the hospital. Maybe it's because you're young (I don't mean that in a condescending way) and you haven't gained the more realistic perspective that comes along with aging and thus also realizing that in some cases life isn't a gift and that it's just way more complicated than saying "this person should live no matter what". Sometimes death is more humane.
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Post July 6th, 2016, 5:08 am

Re: Abortion?

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Mirkprince wrote:I think you may actually have quite a jaded view of conservatives though, I have many, many conservative friends (in fact, the majority of my conservative friends) who care deeply for the poor and they hate inequality, in fact many of them have dedicated their lives to fighting inequality. They just have a different view on how inequality is to be combated, they are often looking at the issue through a broader economic perspective. While I disagree with them hugely on allot of these things, I respect their opinions. As I respect the opinions of those on the other side of the argument.

BUT please don't throw everyone into the same basket, there are many extremely intelligent, kind, caring and thoughtful people who are right-conservatives and that in no way diminishes the value of their opinions or their humanity.


I do my best not to generalize conservatives, but they make it pretty hard for me not to when I see and hear the things they write and say. Many seem to be detached from reality or just plain ignorant about certain things, while others only seem to see the surface of issues and fail to understand the many layers and causes of social, financial and political issues. I'll be honest, even though we've been arguing it's been nice to read some of the things you've written, because you are a conservative who seems to have more empathy and you seem to understand certain things.


Mirkprince wrote:5. On your activism point:
PF is just a tiny bit of what I do, the reality is that on PF I argue more for fun and for practice than anything else. I use twitter, Facebook and I have a blog which I dedicate to writing about my political opinions etc. I do not believe for a second that what happens here is meaningless or worthless, the reason is that a little while ago I received one of the most encouraging messages of my life from a fellow member who had been following this thread. That member said that my arguments and the arguments of someone else at the time, had changed their viewpoint entirely just from the arguments presented here. It was an emotional experience seeing something I wrote make a difference, I know people can change as I have changed an unbelievable amount in the past several years.


It's cool that you have a blog and that you use Twitter and Facebook for your activism.
I get that it's encouraging for you that you received a pm from a fellow member about how you changed their opinion. But still...that's not a reason to drag things out and continuously argue with the same people. Your old posts will always be available for people to read if they wanna understand both sides of the debate. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Mirkprince wrote:I disagree. A loss of life that amounts to at least 2,800 A DAY! Is a greater travesty than anything else being suffered on earth right now. I hate oppression, I hate racism and terrorism as well. I am passionate about all these aspects... but I don't devote as much time to them as I do to the Abortion issue, partly because I believe that Abortion is the single greatest human rights issue of our day. Because I believe that the right to life is the most fundamental right that a human can possess. Therefore the loss of over 2,800 lives daily is the greatest travesty to that most valuable right.
My mum grew up in Apartheid South Africa and my dad in Rhodesia... I understand the brutal reality of racial oppression, racism and deep seated inequality. Because I face up to it very often, South Africa is still a country that is torn by deep racial divides (it's where my citizenship is and where my extended family and some of my siblings live). So I do truly see the damaging effects of racism and institutionalized racial oppression and it breaks my heart.


You are wrong about it being the greatest travesty that's being suffered on earth. This doesn't compare to conscious, living people who go through life being treated horribly for being born in the "wrong" skin color, the "wrong" gender, or for having the "wrong" sexual orientation. None of this compares to the life long oppression many people face. None of this compares to the pain family members and friends feel when someone they love has become another victim of unnecessary gun violence and police brutality. This doesn't compare to how girls and women suffer in third world countries simply for being female. Their suffering is greater and longer and more difficult than the suffering that you are most passionate about. This is another topic we'll have to agree to disagree on.


Mirkprince wrote:I've learned to admit when I'm wrong, I am constantly reviewing and re-defining my views as I search for truth and understanding. I have changed my views on climate change, gun control, immigration, welfare and capitalism/socialism a HUGE amount. But I have yet to find a single argument that can even come close to shaking my dedication to this cause, that is not for lack of an open mind or lack of true searching. I've read the majority of arguments on both sides.
But if I do not stand up for my convictions then what sort of man am I? If I do not have the courage to turn against the status quo when I feel it contradicts the deepest values I hold and the most baseline morality to which I cling, how then can I call myself someone worthy of even the most minuscule amount of respect?


Sometimes I forget that you're a teenager in High School who's still learning about life and the way the world is. To be honest, I knew a lot less than you do, when I was your age. So, I'm pretty impressed with how much time you've put into learning. I know we won't ever agree on everything, but it's cool to see how your views on the topics you've stated have changed. You seem to have a very compassionate heart.

Even though I have already found the political ideology that suits me best, I am still, just like you, learning and changing, and I'm 22 lol. I remember your thread about climate change and how it was difficult for you to change your opinion because of they way you've been raised. I understand that, and even though I might seem pretty harsh toward you sometimes, I do understand you because we have similar backgrounds and I know how hard it is to change or completely dump a belief or opinion you've had that your parents taught you.

Now, the last thing I want to add is that I never meant that you should become pro-choice. Sometimes I've gotten caught up in certain aspects of the debate, and maybe it seemed like I was trying to make you switch beliefs or that I was completely pro-choice. But my main reason for debating here has been to point out the flaws in the pro-life ideology. I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice. I'm somewhere in between because this issue is just too complex and far from black and white. Since you already had all your pro-life info and had detected the flaws in the pro-choice ideology, I decided to bring up reasons for why it doesn't work to be pro-life either. I have no problem with you being against abortion, there are just some things about it that just don't work, in my opinion. When I wrote about aborting a baby who is terminally ill and will suffer and then die in a few years, I didn't mean that it's life is less valuable. I am, for example, pro euthanasia because I don't believe people should suffer immensely when they already have a death sentence. The baby we spoke about wasn't aborted because it's life would be "less valuable" but because its parents didn't want it to suffer. I don't think it's right to force a baby to suffer like that and not get to enjoy life and play because they're in too much pain and always in the hospital. Maybe it's because you're young (I don't mean that in a condescending way) and you haven't gained the more realistic perspective that comes along with aging and thus also realizing that in some cases life isn't a gift and that it's just way more complicated than saying "this person should live no matter what". Sometimes death is more humane.


Fair enough. There is a point at which one must agree to disagree on things, I respect you immensely... you've obviously thought through your opinions very deeply and I do respect that! I respect your opinions as well, though I continue to disagree with you on several points... especially that abortion should be legal in any circumstance other than when the mother's life is in danger, I still can understand where you are coming from and respect that. Thanks for being willing to debate with me though, it's fun and challenging and if I'm never challenged then I will never grow. So thanks again :)!
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Post July 6th, 2016, 10:49 am

Re: Abortion?

Mirkprince, you choose a very complex topic to be passionate about, for a couple of reasons.
1) not everything immoral should be illegal. So just because you and others and in some cases me as well think abortion is immoral doesn't mean there should be a law against it.
2) abortion one of those things that are going to happen you want them or not, like teenager sex or prostitution. But it's a lot better to honest about it, than trying to keep it in the shadows and looking away. It's better if teenagers know about sex and how to stay save and are able to talk it. Or to make sure a prostitute is able to health insurance can go to the police if something happens to her. Same with abortion, it's better if it's done my real doctors and not in some back ally room.
3) the human mind is not very good at understanding processes. Something in the making is not easy for us to evacuated. To determined the value of just a thing in the making is unbelievable difficult, how much more so if we talk about a human in the making. At the beginning of a pregnancy those cluster of cells isn't a human yet, it has the potential to be, but stopped right there it isn't. But what is it? After a month 1/9 of a human? Or should we subtract all potential risks from that, that could prevent it from becoming one. That would seem pretty ridiculous, right? People like you prevent his kind questions, by declaring it a human from the very beginning, but that has definition has its own problems. One of them, this organism has as little identity as all those microorganisms that fermented our food. And leads us to,
4) what does mean for our medical development? Most obvious, in vitro fertilization. For each of those pregnancies a couple of eggs are fertilized. Does each as the right to be placed into a uterus, because it's a potential human or not? And what's the difference between a one that came into existence because of an accident or the one that came existence because of explicitly wish of its patents/donator? To make it a bit over the top, in the in vitro process it went through the 2 and 4 cell phase. Those cells could be separated from each other and each would grow into separate human being, that's how identical twins come to be. So do we have protect one, two or four potential human beings? Or are you against in vitro fertilization for the same reasons you against abortion?
On a least obvious note, the holy grail of medical science! Reprogramming adult cells into stem cells and that programming them into what ever heart, lung, brain... The moment they would succeed in turning them back into stem cells, those cells could one again grow into a full human being and genetic twin of the donator. So should we stop this kind of science that could save thousands of lives?

You see, there is a lot more to the question when does life begin and when does a human begin, than just abortion.
Do we often treat unborn life to careless, yes! But that's not something we should regulate with laws, because laws are even less able to deal with this complexity than a human mind. The thing is, we all value human life differently at different stages of life. Just think about the moral mind game of the train and you decide where it goes, on one side two kids on the other side two 95 year olds. You put a different value to their lives, because of how long they have yet to live, right? But if the choice was between the 95 year olds and and container of fertilized embryos , wouldn't it be something very different?
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Post July 6th, 2016, 11:12 am

Re: Abortion?

Mirkprince just keeps beating that dead horse over and over, fucking hell. Oh, and I agree with The Librarian. This article is pretentious and quite subtle in its pretentiousness as well. All in all, it's trash.
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Post November 14th, 2017, 3:46 am

Re: Abortion?

Anubis wrote:What is your oppinion about this?

There are many reasons why a girl wants to do that, and it is not considered as a murder, becouse removing embryo in early stadium isn't killing.
What about this, girl gets pregnant and she is not ready for that kind of a obligation, why? She doesn't have money, house, a permanent job. Why to give a child a very hard time. And if she puts the baby in the orphanage he/she won't get as much attenion and love as he/she needs. So, i will repeat, Why to give a child hard time....


You can kill an undesirable determined by the state, I'm talking about when you go to war, you can kill enemy soldiers but you can't kill an undesirable determined by you, lol. :)
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CruciAvada

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Post December 14th, 2017, 4:30 am

Re: Abortion?

Anubis wrote:What is your oppinion about this?

There are many reasons why a girl wants to do that, and it is not considered as a murder, becouse removing embryo in early stadium isn't killing.
What about this, girl gets pregnant and she is not ready for that kind of a obligation, why? She doesn't have money, house, a permanent job. Why to give a child a very hard time. And if she puts the baby in the orphanage he/she won't get as much attenion and love as he/she needs. So, i will repeat, Why to give a child hard time....


So you're all for ending suffering by killing? How about adoption? Do you know how many couples can't have kids and would love to take care of a child if a birthmother can't or won't take care of it herself?
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MarsUltor

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Post December 14th, 2017, 5:26 pm

Re: Abortion?

Although I could never agree such thing for my kid, people may do whatever they want.
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GellertGPhoenix

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Post December 14th, 2017, 7:27 pm

Re: Abortion?

CruciAvada wrote:So you're all for ending suffering by killing? How about adoption? Do you know how many couples can't have kids and would love to take care of a child if a birthmother can't or won't take care of it herself?


There are more than enough orphans in the world for couples who cannot have children. If fact, there are way too many people period. The world simply cannot hold more people. There are millions of people who are starving. If it's a choice between "killing" a fetus and causing the death of a living thinking, feeling, learning child elsewhere in the world, which would you choose?

Also, it is not considered killing, because the fetus cannot really think yet. It doesn't have a "life" yet. Children do. They are suffering. Making more mouths to feed isn't helping them. It isn't helping our planet either.
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Remustonks

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Post January 11th, 2018, 6:59 pm

Re: Abortion?

I am pro-life for sure. I do not agree on abortion for any reason. It is a life from day one. Now I don't hate on people who choose to go that route for what ever reason. It is your choice to make not mine. I wish people would choose life, but I can't make them. I am against racism as well. I will fight for the rights all people not just the unborn, but those are the ones that can't speak for themselves like the others can. People should be able to make the choice for them self because they are going to be the ones that have to live with it for the rest of their lives. It is a life. Anything with a heart beat is. I do not see how it is ok to kill unborn child who could go to cure cancer or what ever else, but it is not my place to judge people. I won't at all.
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The Librarian

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Post January 11th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Re: Abortion?

When people say pro-life, they don't really understand what life is by definition. Those "children" they speak of are not yet children. They are literally a part of the woman body as it is her body that keeps the fetus alive.
Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body.

Another key difference is that a fetus doesn't just depend on a woman's body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. Again, being an extended part of the woman's body does not cut it.

Even if a fetus can be said to have a right to life, this does not include the right to use the body of a human being. For example, the state cannot force people to donate organs or blood, even to save someone's life. We are not obligated by law to risk our lives jumping into a river to save a drowning victim, noble as that might be. Therefore, even if a fetus would a right to life, a pregnant woman is not required to save it by loaning out her body for nine months against her will

I am not denying that they are in progress of becoming a human being, but an actual life must come before a possibility for one.

I really hate how women up til this day still struggle with their rights in our societies, even with their own body. Do you understand that? The women are still so far behind in being treated equally that their right of their own body is in question.

We do not live and the medieval ages any more, women are not breeders but actual people. With that comes certain rights. Stop trying to deny them that.

Pro-life should mean standing up for the actual person being alive, and said persons right to her own body.
I support canon because I have actually read the books and seen what they feel and whom they love.
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Pensieve Seeker

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Post January 18th, 2018, 5:35 pm

Re: Abortion?

The Librarian wrote:When people say pro-life, they don't really understand what life is by definition. Those "children" they speak of are not yet children.


Then, what are they? Hello Kitty alarm clocks?

The Librarian wrote:They are literally a part of the woman body as it is her body that keeps the fetus alive.


If they were literally a part of the woman's body, then they would have the same dna the woman has.

The Librarian wrote:Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. *snip*


Do tell what they are classified as. A bird? A fish? A reptile?
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Khaleesi

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Post January 18th, 2018, 7:00 pm

Re: Abortion?

Pensieve Seeker wrote:Then, what are they? Hello Kitty alarm clocks?

Prenatal humans. Before the 12th week of a pregnancy,
Spoiler: show
since legally, abortion is denied anywhere past the 12th week I believe but don't quote me specifically
it is classified as a fertilized egg or an embryo. No developed or functioning organs. Has no sense of being, can't develop coherent thoughts or feelings, etc. Really just a big mass of cells.

Pensieve Seeker wrote:If they were literally a part of the woman's body, then they would have the same dna the woman has.

Genetic variation and heredity are whole separate topics so we could probably just skip right over that. The baby is connected to the mother by a chord. It's entire existence as a whole is dependent on the mother. Hence, mothers change their diets, exercise routines, drug use (ie; smoking, drinking), etc., because literally anything and everything they do will lead right back to the child growing in them. Until that baby is snipped away from its mother, it physically constitutes as a piece of her.

Pensieve Seeker wrote:Do tell what they are classified as. A bird? A fish? A reptile?

Again, an embryo.
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