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"Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

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Grrarrggh

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Post March 21st, 2017, 1:17 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

stefanvh wrote:
Grrarrggh wrote:But how do you "market" yourself as a candidate to people who don't or won't understand how the world works and why it works that way? ... Unless you straight up lie to them what can you do?


Obama marketed himself to those same people who voted for Trump on economic issues, particularly in 2008. Even Hillary could have pulled it off, but instead she just assumed that the Rust Belt/Blue Wall would go blue by default, since that's what happened since 1992. She didn't even visit Wisconsin ONCE. Hillary should have bolstered those states, because it was pretty clear from the start that Trump was eyeing them.


Oh, I totally agree Hilary and Co were morons and didn't run the campaign well at all. But some of those people voted based on complete lies. Lies that they are desperate to hold on to. It will be interesting to see if they turn on Trump if/when their lives aren't better in 4 years or continue to turn on everyone else and blame everyone else for Trump's failures.
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Post March 21st, 2017, 2:19 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Grrarrggh wrote:
stefanvh wrote:
Grrarrggh wrote:But how do you "market" yourself as a candidate to people who don't or won't understand how the world works and why it works that way? ... Unless you straight up lie to them what can you do?


Obama marketed himself to those same people who voted for Trump on economic issues, particularly in 2008. Even Hillary could have pulled it off, but instead she just assumed that the Rust Belt/Blue Wall would go blue by default, since that's what happened since 1992. She didn't even visit Wisconsin ONCE. Hillary should have bolstered those states, because it was pretty clear from the start that Trump was eyeing them.


Oh, I totally agree Hilary and Co were morons and didn't run the campaign well at all. But some of those people voted based on complete lies. Lies that they are desperate to hold on to. It will be interesting to see if they turn on Trump if/when their lives aren't better in 4 years or continue to turn on everyone else and blame everyone else for Trump's failures.


I think it's going to be interesting for how long Trump will get to tout the "yuge numbers" "great jobs" "tremendous stock market" when he's essentially riding on Obama (when during his campaign he was decrying those stats as being fake). After one year, two max, he's all on his own. And then we'll get to see the bigly benefits of protectionism.
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Post March 26th, 2017, 10:36 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Being completely honest, as a member of the LGBT+ community, this thread hits a little close to home. Safe spaces are necessary, especially in universities, because in college, people are trying to discover themselves. They need to be confident of who they are, and they need to feel comfortable in their own shoes and in their environment so that they can do that. People who are repressed often find it very difficult to be themselves and they cannot therefore reach their full potential as a benefit to society. College should be a nurturing environment, bringing out the best in young people. It should prepare young people for the real world; not put its full burden on their shoulders. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Post April 13th, 2017, 4:48 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

I would like to point out that a hundred years ago, 18 year olds were killing each other in trenches in France. 80 years ago they were killing each other on the beaches of Normandy. Fifty years ago they were killing each in the jungles of Vietnam.


Now, they need safe spaces because society finally figured out that children killing children was a bad thing.


Bet you didnt think that this was the direction I was heading.
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Post April 15th, 2017, 5:07 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

GellertGPhoenix wrote:College should be a nurturing environment, bringing out the best in young people. It should prepare young people for the real world; not put its full burden on their shoulders. Just my thoughts on the matter.


So giving them a "safe space" is preparing them for the real world? Just eactly how does that work? Just when did we turn the University into your mother? It's not supposed to be a nurturing environment; it's a learning environment. It's where you are supposed to be exposed to different people, different ideas, not hiding off in some safe space so you can be with others like yourself sitting around petting puppy dogs and agreeing with one another. If going to class, studying, and hanging around the coffee shop in your mind is akin to carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders then I suggest you seek out professional help. And I'm not saying that to be a smart ass, but I really mean you need help.

I find it amazing just how weak minded and thin skinned so many in the current generation are. So brainwashed by the regressive left; so easy to offend. This PC culture is a cult. No better than any religion out there. Like religious zealots they can not be talked to because they refuse to listen. They chant and shout their little mantras to drown out any logic that may be spoken because their own position is so weak. And facts mean absolutely nothing because the only truth is their PC dogma. People of the LGBT community, (There is no + or ?), here in the western world, who faced discrimination 10x worse than anything you've probably gone through, didn't hide in some safe space. They didn't run away from the confrontations. Didn't try to get words they didn't like banned. They met bigotry head on, using reason and logic, and through perseverance and strength of resolve they made things a whole hellva lot better for those, like you, who came after them. Perfect? No. Still things to be done? Most assuredly. But nothing is gonna get done of any real substance or value when PC idiots, who are mostly white,( and yet have the audacity to take it upon themselves to speak for minorities, and the disenfranchised), are going around like little fascist telling others what words they can use, throw a tantrum when any differeing view point is expressed, and when it gets a little hot go running off for some safe space filled with coloring books. Not only is this the antithesis of preparing them for the real world, but it dishonors those who went before them who were really trying to make a difference and make the world a better, more tolerable place.



“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”


― George Carlin
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Post April 15th, 2017, 4:42 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:
GellertGPhoenix wrote:College should be a nurturing environment, bringing out the best in young people. It should prepare young people for the real world; not put its full burden on their shoulders. Just my thoughts on the matter.


So giving them a "safe space" is preparing them for the real world? Just eactly how does that work?

In safe spaces such as alliances, people are exposed to the challenges and controversies that other people face. Safe spaces (Should straight people or majorities attend) allow people to be exposed to people who are different from them, and it allows them to see that, these people are not in fact so different. Clear as mud?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:Just when did we turn the University into your mother? It's not supposed to be a nurturing environment; it's a learning environment. It's where you are supposed to be exposed to different people, different ideas, not hiding off in some safe space so you can be with others like yourself sitting around petting puppy dogs and agreeing with one another.

You are absolutely right in that Universities are supposed to be a learning environment. I am not arguing otherwise. A safe space is not a place to hide. It is in fact quite the opposite. Being in a Safe Space allows a person to be themselves. It allows them to learn about controversies, and how to turn the world around, so that we can all pet puppies and come to agreements easier. If I didn't know better, I'd say you're jealous. Puppies are awesome. But alas, perhaps you are a cat person. Maybe there should be more cats in safe spaces...

Thane Blackthorn wrote: If going to class, studying, and hanging around the coffee shop in your mind is akin to carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders then I suggest you seek out professional help. And I'm not saying that to be a smart ass, but I really mean you need help.

Oh, you are so right; I definitely do need help. Conversion therapy, that's what I need. Minorities do carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, much of the time. Don't kid yourself. You'll notice that there are some small liberal arts colleges that don't have safe spaces. Do you know why? It's because they're already safe. Large Universities, however, have a much wider range of people, some of whom are not so accepting of people who are different from them.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:I find it amazing just how weak minded and thin skinned so many in the current generation are. So brainwashed by the regressive left; so easy to offend.


Alright, Thane. If you don't mind my asking, what is your gender? If you answer male, too bad, everyone else will call you a girl. Or if you answer Female, also, you're out of luck, everyone will call you a boy. It could also be that you don't fall on one side or the other, but how are you going to explain that to people? Or maybe everyone will call you queer, a freak, or a fucking faggot. Maybe we'll use the wrong pronouns for you, or yank down your pants in a locker room- The wrong locker room... and if you think that's unpleasant, well then I think you're being a bit thin-skinned, my friend. (This was hypothetical for the purpose of demonstration, I mean no disrespect. I think you know just as well as I do that all of these scenarios really do happen, and quite frequently.)


Thane Blackthorn wrote:This PC culture is a cult. No better than any religion out there. Like religious zealots they can not be talked to because they refuse to listen. They chant and shout their little mantras to drown out any logic that may be spoken because their own position is so weak. And facts mean absolutely nothing because the only truth is their PC dogma.

Then speak. What do we need to hear? Tell me your truth. I'll listen.


Thane Blackthorn wrote: People of the LGBT community, (There is no + or ?), here in the western world, who faced discrimination 10x worse than anything you've probably gone through, didn't hide in some safe space. They didn't run away from the confrontations. Didn't try to get words they didn't like banned. They met bigotry head on, using reason and logic, and through perseverance and strength of resolve they made things a whole hellva lot better for those, like you, who came after them.

Please elaborate as to which people you are talking about. I'll reiterate, that safe space are not a place for hiding. They are a place for standing up, for realizing that you have a voice, and that you can meet bigotry. A Safe space is like an armory of arsenal. They are also a place to take in the wounded, to help people get back on their feet.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:Perfect? No. Still things to be done? Most assuredly. But nothing is gonna get done of any real substance or value when PC idiots, who are mostly white,( and yet have the audacity to take it upon themselves to speak for minorities, and the disenfranchised), are going around like little fascist telling others what words they can use, throw a tantrum when any differeing view point is expressed, and when it gets a little hot go running off for some safe space filled with coloring books. Not only is this the antithesis of preparing them for the real world, but it dishonors those who went before them who were really trying to make a difference and make the world a better, more tolerable place.

Coloring books are actually a very enjoyable endeavor. I suggest you try them. Four in ten transgender people attempt suicide at one point in their life. LGB youth are 4 times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexual youth. Suicide is the second leading cause of death in young people. Puppies and mandalas are known forms of therapy. The next time you feel like you want to kill yourself, I can tell you some other coping strategies that I learned in safe spaces.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”

― George Carlin

If that's your belief, then I'm going to call you whatever pronouns I want, and you can't force me to alter my speech.
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Thane Blackthorn

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Post April 16th, 2017, 6:31 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

GellertGPhoenix wrote:In safe spaces such as alliances, people are exposed to the challenges and controversies that other people face. Safe spaces (Should straight people or majorities attend) allow people to be exposed to people who are different from them, and it allows them to see that, these people are not in fact so different. Clear as mud?


Don't know what safe spaces you're in, but the whole idea of safe spaces is segregated areas for "like" people to associate in. There's no mixing of "other" people in a particular groups "space". It's getting out of the space where different people will meet and be exposed to different people. Savvy?

GellertGPhoenix wrote:You are absolutely right in that Universities are supposed to be a learning environment. I am not arguing otherwise. A safe space is not a place to hide. It is in fact quite the opposite. Being in a Safe Space allows a person to be themselves. It allows them to learn about controversies, and how to turn the world around, so that we can all pet puppies and come to agreements easier. If I didn't know better, I'd say you're jealous. Puppies are awesome. But alas, perhaps you are a cat person. Maybe there should be more cats in safe spaces...


No, it's a place where you learn what to think, and how to indoctrinate the world with the same kind of group think that those in your safe space do. To learn the proper way to silence any idea that doesn't mesh with that way of thinking, and how to quash any thought, idea, or word that might lead to freedom of thought outside of the group.


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Oh, you are so right; I definitely do need help. Conversion therapy, that's what I need. Minorities do carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, much of the time. Don't kid yourself. You'll notice that there are some small liberal arts colleges that don't have safe spaces. Do you know why? It's because they're already safe. Large Universities, however, have a much wider range of people, some of whom are not so accepting of people who are different from them.


Oh you mean like the real world. Colleges actually have people who don't agree with you on everything and you might actually run into them and they might actually have a different view point. Sure need to go to a safe space if that happens. :roll: The fact that you don't see the contridictory nature of what you're saying is almost astounding.


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Alright, Thane. If you don't mind my asking, what is your gender? If you answer male, too bad, everyone else will call you a girl. Or if you answer Female, also, you're out of luck, everyone will call you a boy. It could also be that you don't fall on one side or the other, but how are you going to explain that to people? Or maybe everyone will call you queer, a freak, or a fucking faggot. Maybe we'll use the wrong pronouns for you, or yank down your pants in a locker room- The wrong locker room... and if you think that's unpleasant, well then I think you're being a bit thin-skinned, my friend. (This was hypothetical for the purpose of demonstration, I mean no disrespect. I think you know just as well as I do that all of these scenarios really do happen, and quite frequently.)


I'm male. And believe it or not, you're either one or the other yourself. It's called biology and we humans come one of TWO ways. So you either have a Y or another X, and there's really no way around that. You talked about having a place to be yourself. That should be anywhere you are. Be yourself. You don't need a safe space for that. Accept yourself for who you are and you'll be amazed at how many others will accept you too. And for those who don't, screw them.

And this is not to say that I don't know about things like gender dysphoria, which maybe you suffer from, but that doesn't make you/them the opposite gender that you/they were assigned at birth. You/they were born as what you/they were born as. Your/their mental disease is just that. And that doesn't mean that if you want me to call you a she when in fact you're a he, or visa versa, that I won't. I'll call you a she or a he if that's what you prefer. But you only have the choice between the two, and not all those made up bullshit ones they have in your safe space zones. I realize that at present it's a disease with no known cure, and I have absolutly no problem with people who feel the need to act out as the stereotypical gender to which they THINK they belong. I shall treat them with how they present themselves.


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Then speak. What do we need to hear? Tell me your truth. I'll listen.


I've been giving you an earful.


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Please elaborate as to which people you are talking about. I'll reiterate, that safe space are not a place for hiding. They are a place for standing up, for realizing that you have a voice, and that you can meet bigotry. A Safe space is like an armory of arsenal. They are also a place to take in the wounded, to help people get back on their feet.


Do I really need to get redundant here? We've covered this.



GellertGPhoenix wrote:Coloring books are actually a very enjoyable endeavor. I suggest you try them. Four in ten transgender people attempt suicide at one point in their life. LGB youth are 4 times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexual youth. Suicide is the second leading cause of death in young people. Puppies and mandalas are known forms of therapy. The next time you feel like you want to kill yourself, I can tell you some other coping strategies that I learned in safe spaces.


It's the same kind of things they teach on the mental wards too. Maybe you should use those as your safe spaces and not college campuses. I think they're a little better equipped to handle suicidal people than a college safe space as well.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”

― George Carlin


GellertGPhoenix wrote:If that's your belief, then I'm going to call you whatever pronouns I want, and you can't force me to alter my speech.


I'm a huge advocate for free speech. And by that I mean ALL speech. Call me whatever you want. You actually think I'll have a problem with what amounts to a bunch of words on a screen calls me? And what makes you think I have the power to alter your speech, or that I'd want to? If you want to call yourself non binary, go ahead. As long as your delution doesn't cause harm to anyone else you can call yourself Shirley for all I care. Just don't think that I HAVE to call you that or ze, zir, hir, or any of that bullshit. Unless told otherwise you're a he to me. (That's how your sig seems to present you, so that's what I'm going with.) And if told otherwise then it'll be she. Like I said you only have two choices.

Watch and learn.

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Post April 17th, 2017, 3:52 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Oh my...

Alright. This would be a very long quote if I were to quote it... so I'm not.

I will instead give you this scenario.

Let's say that you now run a restaurant. Your restaurant has been around for a while, and never once has it sold anything but meat. Many of your customers are happy with this. However, now you start to see parties coming in, and some of their friends ask if there is a vegetarian option. You tell them there is not. The party leaves. As this starts to become more of a pattern, you see that you are loosing opportunities. While no one is forcing you to change your restaurant to accommodate for vegetarians, it seems logical for business that there be an option for those people. It seems logical to treat them with respect as you would any customer, and that you should offer them what you can, as you would any customer. No one is forcing you. You might not even want to change. Yet, as the world progresses, we must progress with it, else we be left behind.

In my alliance, there are not only one type of people. There are straight allies, as well as members of the LGBT+ community. Some people think alike, some people don't. We all enjoy ourselves, that's the common thread.

If you want to be technical, I am biologically female. Please don't ridicule me over this. It's taken a lot for me to come out over the past year, and you have no idea how hard it is explaining to people. You think I like asking people for accommodations? I hate it. I hate feeling like I have to ask them a favor, or cause them trouble, or give them a reason to dislike me. What I hate more is living a lie though. When I think of myself, most of the time I don't think "Man" or "Woman"... I think "me" just like everyone else... I don't think about my gender every second of every day. It's not a disorder. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm me. I can be myself proudly. I like making friends who are different than me. Some of my friends are not as confident as I am. Some of them are not out to people, for a vast number of different reasons. I go to safe zones, not to hide, but to help, mostly.

I really can't force you to do anything. I would appreciate you using my listed pronouns... but I certainly can't make you, or anyone else.
Hopefully, you will never be speaking of me, and will not ever have to use pronouns.

Male and Female. These terms are what we call sex. There are also people called transsexuals, and those are people who have had surgery, to physically match their gender.
Sex is different from gender, and sex is different from sexuality.

Sex: The parts you have
Gender: The brain you have
Sexuality: The heart you have

That's the difference.

You might also be surprised to find that being transgender is no longer considered a mental illness.

I'll be completely honest with you. While I mean no disrespect to others, at times I do find the... number of different... labels, pronouns, etc, to be overwhelming. I've always thought of labels to be rather silly, for that matter. (and the number of them these days is rather... ridiculous. I mean my gender says on here "Non-Binary" but I'm "technically" Genderfluid. Does anyone care? Ha! I'm probably the only queer here, so of course they don't. I don't really either. Non-binary was the most umbrella term I could think of for someone who is not a man or woman. I certainly wasn't about to ask the administrators to add 50 gender options. :lol: It's funny, I visited another "Safe Zone" recently, and they had like 50 something different pins, which each having its own flag or symbol. I mean honestly, remember the days when a simple rainbow made the cut? Anyways.) But they help for clarification, so they do serve a purpose... as for pronouns, I really don't think it's too much to ask of someone to call them by their correct pronouns. Especially someone who you don't know in the real world, and have no idea what they may be like. It's the same as introducing a name. Hi, I'm GellertGPhoenix. So are you going to call me something else? Why would you call me something else, if this is how I introduced myself? Sure, I'm going to call you Daisy. Why? Because I can. It doesn't make any sense though, you see?
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Thane Blackthorn

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Post April 18th, 2017, 12:36 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

You paint a nice little rosy picture there. And if that's how it is on your little grain of sand I'm happy for you. But that's not how it's happening on the rest of the beach. See on the rest of the beach, or most of it, the safe spaces are segregated. Blacks over here, gays over there, women over there, etc. So unless you're a gay, latino/black, muslim, woman you are pretty much restricted to your area of the campus. (As far as safe spaces goes, that is.)

And now for a more realistic look at that scenario of yours. To better capture the realities of what's going on.

I run a fairly decent eating establishment, I serve meat. And in walks a party of people. And a few members of the party would like a vegetarian dish. I apologize and let them know we don't have any vegetarian dishes. Next thing I know they are all up in arms. Yelling and carrying on. "How dare you not have a veggie plate on the menu!!!" Next thing you know they're all on tumbler and twitter and facebook calling me a veggiephobe, and demanding that some law be past to force all eating establishments to offer veggie plates. I try to calm them down. I tell them that a few blocks down the street is a vegan establishment. A few blocks up the street is a place that has veggie options. They don't hear a word. They're to busy shouting me down and calling me names to listen. They demand a change to my menu. They demand I be closed down. Why I must be a Nazi. I'm as bad as Hitler. (Did you know Hitler was a vegitarian?) Unless I capitulate to their demands right here and now they'll stand outside with signs and maybe have a little riot to boot.

Now of course I loose business. Not because the people in my area have stopped eating meat. Not because I don't have a veggie option on the menu. But they don't want the stigma of eating in a place that's run by a veggiephobe or go to an establishment where there might be some kind of trouble. Even though I've had vegetables as side dishes from the day I opened. Doesn't matter; I have a label now, because a bunch of thin skinned, spoiled children, threw a tantrum because they were offended because they couldn't get what they wanted, when they wanted it, where they wanted it. They're as bad as two year olds. Worse. So yes, they are trying to FORCE people.

That's a little more in line to what's happening on these campuses. You have professors who can't even teach a class properly for fear of saying the "wrong" word and triggering one of these special snowflakes. And then spend the next month or two in front of some review board trying to defend standard teaching methods using standard material. You have classes like Womens Studies, Gender Studies, and many Sociology classes that should all be renamed Political Correctness Indoctrination 101. You're not learning any kind of truth there. It's all propagandized bullshit. And it's speading from the colleges and filtering down to the high schools. This keeps up we'll be as bad as Sweden.

So either you've insulated yourself from what's going on and really don't know, or you're blind, or a lyer. I don't actually know your situation, or you as a person, but if you really don't know, you need to wake the hell up.

As far as pronouns go, you're right. It shouldn't be a big deal. And it never was until just a few years ago. No one had a problem with he and she, and no one should. They've worked for all this time....no need to change or add to them. (And really; one of my biggest problems with the PC people is their total lack of prioritization. Even if all the things they want are correct, with all that's going on in the world, is a pronoun really a top priority? Can we focus on war in the world? The fact that homosexuals and women have no rights in many countries? etc, etc, etc, etc, etc......I mean really...get a sense of perspective.)

And just because the APA has changed it's mind once again doesn't make it so. Gender dysphoria is listed on the DSM-5, and the only reason it's not still labeled as a mental illness, or by it's old name of gender identity disorder, is because of the presure exerted on it from fascist groups like the ones I'm talking about. They fear to be labeled with a ist or a phobe so they capitulate.

And no; gender is not the brain you have. That's bullshit one learns in that fake class "Gender Studies". Gender is in your DNA, You either have an extra X or you got a Y. One is female, the other is male. That's how gender actually works. I realize you being a victim of dysphoria how you'd want to gravitate to listening to what you want to hear in order to "feel" better about yourself. And quite frankly I don't care if you want to live in your fantasyland. As long as you're not a danger to others you can believe you're a dog and believe that believing that is not a mental disorder. But facts don't care about your feelings. So don't think that I have to feed into your fantasy.

Ask yourself this. There have been all kinds of people discriminated against throughout history. And some have had it way worse than others. And, relatively speaking, if you live in the west now you haven't come close to how others have been treated, or are currently being treated in other parts of the world or other times in history. And yet their suicide rate doesn't even come close to that of those in the trans community here in the west. So wouldn't that be a sign of the mental disorder? That being trans and suicidal are a part of the same mental problem? I've heard some try to pass it off as being so high because of the discrimination that they go through, but that just doesn't add up considering what others have gone through.

In any case I leave you with this:




^You have no idea.

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GellertGPhoenix

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Post April 18th, 2017, 1:46 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

I watched about half of that video. From your perspective, I'm sure it's very amusing.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:You paint a nice little rosy picture there. And if that's how it is on your little grain of sand I'm happy for you. But that's not how it's happening on the rest of the beach. See on the rest of the beach, or most of it, the safe spaces are segregated. Blacks over here, gays over there, women over there, etc. So unless you're a gay, latino/black, muslim, woman you are pretty much restricted to your area of the campus. (As far as safe spaces goes, that is.)
Maybe you could do me the service of not assuming that all left-minded people and minorities are the same person. We'll probably get along better if you rid yourself of that assumption.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:And now for a more realistic look at that scenario of yours. To better capture the realities of what's going on.

I run a fairly decent eating establishment, I serve meat. And in walks a party of people. And a few members of the party would like a vegetarian dish. I apologize and let them know we don't have any vegetarian dishes. Next thing I know they are all up in arms. Yelling and carrying on. "How dare you not have a veggie plate on the menu!!!" Next thing you know they're all on tumbler and twitter and facebook calling me a veggiephobe, and demanding that some law be past to force all eating establishments to offer veggie plates. I try to calm them down. I tell them that a few blocks down the street is a vegan establishment. A few blocks up the street is a place that has veggie options. They don't hear a word. They're to busy shouting me down and calling me names to listen. They demand a change to my menu. They demand I be closed down. Why I must be a Nazi. I'm as bad as Hitler. (Did you know Hitler was a vegitarian?) Unless I capitulate to their demands right here and now they'll stand outside with signs and maybe have a little riot to boot.

Now of course I loose business. Not because the people in my area have stopped eating meat. Not because I don't have a veggie option on the menu. But they don't want the stigma of eating in a place that's run by a veggiephobe or go to an establishment where there might be some kind of trouble. Even though I've had vegetables as side dishes from the day I opened. Doesn't matter; I have a label now, because a bunch of thin skinned, spoiled children, threw a tantrum because they were offended because they couldn't get what they wanted, when they wanted it, where they wanted it. They're as bad as two year olds. Worse. So yes, they are trying to FORCE people.


Well, that's society for you. :lol: In all honesty though, I expect most businesses would change over naturally, in order to have more customers. Not everyone is trying to force you. Look at it this way. I'm not. And I'm ironically a vegetarian. ;) (Hell, I'd eat a hotdog bun if that's what places have. Just so long as I don't go hungry, heh. Those might be lower standards than most restaurant-goers though...)


Thane Blackthorn wrote:That's a little more in line to what's happening on these campuses. You have professors who can't even teach a class properly for fear of saying the "wrong" word and triggering one of these special snowflakes. And then spend the next month or two in front of some review board trying to defend standard teaching methods using standard material. You have classes like Womens Studies, Gender Studies, and many Sociology classes that should all be renamed Political Correctness Indoctrination 101. You're not learning any kind of truth there. It's all propagandized bullshit. And it's speading from the colleges and filtering down to the high schools. This keeps up we'll be as bad as Sweden.

Your professors couldn't teach a class properly? Wow. The world must really be going to hell. These goddamn gays. They must be devil-spawn. And oh no, the world's being overrun by women... Actually there's this paper I read, I think you may find it amusing. Or not, I don't really know. http://www.geocities.ws/fourthwave_cana ... freud.html

Thane Blackthorn wrote:So either you've insulated yourself from what's going on and really don't know, or you're blind, or a liar. I don't actually know your situation, or you as a person, but if you really don't know, you need to wake the hell up.


I'm going to take a gamble and say that you're a straight white male. :)
My situation is this. I am relatively privileged. I like to acquaint myself with a diverse group of people, and I am open to a diverse number of opinions. I am also Non-Binary. Generally the people around me are cool about that. I don't come out to everyone, because there are some people like you, who might not take kindly to that. I usually play it by ear, and I try to be respectful of everyone's viewpoints and opinions. For example, if my coming out would make someone else uncomfortable, I probably wouldn't come out to that person. So, sorry to subject you. That tends to happen on public forums.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:As far as pronouns go, you're right. It shouldn't be a big deal. And it never was until just a few years ago. No one had a problem with he and she, and no one should. They've worked for all this time....no need to change or add to them. (And really; one of my biggest problems with the PC people is their total lack of prioritization. Even if all the things they want are correct, with all that's going on in the world, is a pronoun really a top priority? Can we focus on war in the world? The fact that homosexuals and women have no rights in many countries? etc, etc, etc, etc, etc......I mean really...get a sense of perspective.)

And just because the APA has changed it's mind once again doesn't make it so. Gender dysphoria is listed on the DSM-5, and the only reason it's not still labeled as a mental illness, or by it's old name of gender identity disorder, is because of the pressure exerted on it from fascist groups like the ones I'm talking about. They fear to be labeled with a ist or a phobe so they capitulate.

And no; gender is not the brain you have. That's bullshit one learns in that fake class "Gender Studies". Gender is in your DNA, You either have an extra X or you got a Y. One is female, the other is male. That's how gender actually works. I realize you being a victim of dysphoria how you'd want to gravitate to listening to what you want to hear in order to "feel" better about yourself. And quite frankly I don't care if you want to live in your fantasyland. As long as you're not a danger to others you can believe you're a dog and believe that believing that is not a mental disorder. But facts don't care about your feelings. So don't think that I have to feed into your fantasy.

Well. That's rude. No need to make it personal buddy. I'm just trying to be myself. I'm not believing in my gender any more than you are yours. Chill it. I am not attacking you, so you don't need to take a jab at me. Live and let live, if you get my drift... You know, if you're wondering why LGBT+ people go crazy pissed at you or people with a similar mindset, this might be it.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:Ask yourself this. There have been all kinds of people discriminated against throughout history. And some have had it way worse than others. And, relatively speaking, if you live in the west now you haven't come close to how others have been treated, or are currently being treated in other parts of the world or other times in history. And yet their suicide rate doesn't even come close to that of those in the trans community here in the west. So wouldn't that be a sign of the mental disorder? That being trans and suicidal are a part of the same mental problem? I've heard some try to pass it off as being so high because of the discrimination that they go through, but that just doesn't add up considering what others have gone through.


Okay. I hear you. And if I were in your situation, who knows? Maybe I would think the same. I'm not, though. I'm from the standpoint of a person who has had to call friends down from that place. I'm a person who knows that those people are alienated, teased, abused and raped. It's not a mental disorder. They are among a society where they do not fit in. Something a sociology teacher pointed out to me... Suicide rates are higher in "happier" countries than those in countries that are more "depressed." You ask, why is this? It's because, in the "happy" countries, the people that are depressed, feel more so, because they are more alone. In a country where most people are unhappy, there will be less suicides because people will feel like their life matches that of those around them.
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Post April 18th, 2017, 10:23 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Ah, does your hypocrisy know no bounds? First you say this:

GellertGPhoenix wrote: Maybe you could do me the service of not assuming that all left-minded people and minorities are the same person. We'll probably get along better if you rid yourself of that assumption.


But then in the same post you say this:

GellertGPhoenix wrote: These goddamn gays. They must be devil-spawn. And oh no, the world's being overrun by women...


And this:

GellertGPhoenix wrote:I'm going to take a gamble and say that you're a straight white male. :)



So by implication one must conclude that it is only straight white males who disagree with you, but that all women, gays, and minorities must agree with you. See I'm not the one assuming here; you are.

As to what I am....you're about 75% right. I'll let you try and figure out where you went wrong on that one. (Couldn't be because you're assuming could it? *hint*) As far as me thinking that leftists and minorities all think alike; not only do I think they don't think alike, I know they don't. And I most asuredly know that they all don't think like you. I know you've been taught to think that anyone who doesn't tow the PC line must be a straight white, racist, misogynistic, male SOB. Sorry to bust you bubble, but that's just not it. There are many in the gay world who don't see things your way. Many in the black world who just don't see things your way. And the saddest thing is, is that people like yourself don't see that your ideology is both offensive and a huge step backwards. Things weren't perfect, but with each generation strides have been moving forward. Slower than many would have liked, but forward non the less. And your ilk is destroying that progress.

That's a big part of you PC types problem. Without a vote, without being asked, without going out and actually talking to the people, you've taken it upon yourselves to be the spokesmen for all these so called oppressed peoples. And why not? The so called enlightened ones, the elites, don't need to do anything like that. They know what's best for everyone else, don't they? :roll: So you presume to think that only evil white men would think you're wrong. And that all those you deem to be members of the oppressed automatically will agree with you. I mean how could they not....you're only trying to help them by banning words, shutting down free speech, shouting down ideas not your own, keeping everyone in their segregated safe zones, infantilizing entire races of people, and keeping everyone divided with party politics? Look at all you are doing for the cause of....freedom? No that's not it. Just what the hell is your goal anyway? All I see is a bunch of whiny bitching and moaning about your feelings and being upset when you don't get your way.

Your whole ideology is built on a foundation that consists of two main ingredients. Ego and feelings. If it doesn't feel right it must be wrong. Truth, facts, logic all have no place here unless the feeling is right. And the ego to think that you're speaking for anyone other than yourself and your closed minded, goose stepping PC thugs. I mean I do feel for you. I'm sorry that you have experienced bullying. (At least you make it sound as if you have been.) But what you fail to see is that now you are the bully. Remeber that scenario ou set up. I noticed that my tweeking of it got an odd responce. As if you didn't even get what it was about on your end, let alone mine. But I noticed that you didn't seem to have any problem with a small group of people, who were not being oppressed, and who had other options, still forcing things to get their way. And I find that interesting and very telling.

People who share your ideology are just making up problems that don't exist at all, or taking on relatively small problems that need little to no attention at this time.

I don't disagree with you because your trans, or queer, or gay, or a man, or a woman, or black, or Latino, or a Muslim, or whatever other little box you want to stick other people into. I disagree with you because you're wrong.


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Your professors couldn't teach a class properly?


Who said anything about my professor(s)? Thankfully I was out of school by the time the patients started taking over the asylum. I just know people still in that environment, and I have seen and read up on what's going on. One doesn't actually have to be in the desert to know that there's very little water there.


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Well. That's rude. No need to make it personal buddy. I'm just trying to be myself. I'm not believing in my gender any more than you are yours. Chill it. I am not attacking you, so you don't need to take a jab at me. Live and let live, if you get my drift... You know, if you're wondering why LGBT+ people go crazy pissed at you or people with a similar mindset, this might be it.


Personal? Look, if telling you the truth hurts, and you take it personally, nothing I can do about that. It's certainly not going to stop me from stating it. (At least till you little fascists get any real power and start throwing people into re-education camps.)


GellertGPhoenix wrote:Okay. I hear you. And if I were in your situation, who knows? Maybe I would think the same. I'm not, though. I'm from the standpoint of a person who has had to call friends down from that place. I'm a person who knows that those people are alienated, teased, abused and raped. It's not a mental disorder. They are among a society where they do not fit in. Something a sociology teacher pointed out to me... Suicide rates are higher in "happier" countries than those in countries that are more "depressed." You ask, why is this? It's because, in the "happy" countries, the people that are depressed, feel more so, because they are more alone. In a country where most people are unhappy, there will be less suicides because people will feel like their life matches that of those around them.


Sociology teacher? Weren't you paying attention? They may as well rename that class Politically Correct Indoctrination 101. You can't rely on anything in the way of facts in classes like that. It's filled with half truths, made up data from no reliable source, propaganda, and just out right lies. But having said that just simple reason should dictate that the suicide rate in the trans world and others who have been, or currently are, (At least by your made up standards.), being oppressed should be relatively the same. Maybe a point or two difference at best. (And I'm talking about peoples who live in the happy go lucky western world.) But you're seeing a 30+ percentage points spike. Sorry, you'll have to do a lot better than that to convince me that their suicide rate and their transgenderism isn't apart of the same mental disorder.

Just an example of someone who doesn't agree with you...but I guess they should...at least in your mind.
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Post April 19th, 2017, 12:57 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:Ah, does your hypocrisy know no bounds? First you say this:

GellertGPhoenix wrote: Maybe you could do me the service of not assuming that all left-minded people and minorities are the same person. We'll probably get along better if you rid yourself of that assumption.


But then in the same post you say this:

GellertGPhoenix wrote: These goddamn gays. They must be devil-spawn. And oh no, the world's being overrun by women...


And this:

GellertGPhoenix wrote:I'm going to take a gamble and say that you're a straight white male. :)



So by implication one must conclude that it is only straight white males who disagree with you, but that all women, gays, and minorities must agree with you. See I'm not the one assuming here; you are.


I'm sorry. Sometimes I forget that humor can be mistranslated over text. That was me joking. I don't actually believe that, I was just making a joke about societal assumptions. :lol: Honestly I have no way of knowing you gender, sexuality or ethnicity. And for your information, the majority of my friends are in fact, straight white males.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:As to what I am....you're about 75% right. I'll let you try and figure out where you went wrong on that one. (Couldn't be because you're assuming could it? *hint*)

Wait, no, don't tell me. I bet you're... um... wait a minute. *counts down letters* LGBTQIAUVWXYZ... Er, one of those letters.

Sorry, I have a horrible sense of humor. :lol: (You're not funny Gellert, shut up)


Thane Blackthorn wrote:As far as me thinking that leftists and minorities all think alike; not only do I think they don't think alike, I know they don't. And I most asuredly know that they all don't think like you. I know you've been taught to think that anyone who doesn't tow the PC line must be a straight white, racist, misogynistic, male SOB. Sorry to bust you bubble, but that's just not it. There are many in the gay world who don't see things your way. Many in the black world who just don't see things your way. And the saddest thing is, is that people like yourself don't see that your ideology is both offensive and a huge step backwards. Things weren't perfect, but with each generation strides have been moving forward. Slower than many would have liked, but forward non the less. And your ilk is destroying that progress.

Except, that's... not what I've been taught. Look, take everything I say with a grain of salt. If I sound like I hate right-minded people, there's a good chance that I'm messing with you. Here's the thing. I honestly don't think that our thinking is that different. I really don't.
Me personally, I like to make jokes about different groups of people, and I'll do it just as much to myself or my own groups. It's more my sense of humor than anything else. Like I'll say: Those goddamn Republicans! Or Those goddamn Democrats! Or those goddamn gays! Those goddamn liberals! Those goddamn forum goers! It's my idea of a good joke. :lol: I frequently find society amusing, with all their little "boxes".

Thane Blackthorn wrote:That's a big part of you PC types problem.

Hmm... "you PC types"?
See I'm not the one assuming here; you are.
Ah wait... I finally looked it up... PC= Politically correct. I get it now. TMA for me. (Too Many Acronyms) That makes so much more sense.
Well I like to be politically correct, where I can... but that doesn't make me a type, I don't think.

Thane Blackthorn wrote: Without a vote, without being asked, without going out and actually talking to the people, you've taken it upon yourselves to be the spokesmen for all these so called oppressed peoples. And why not? The so called enlightened ones, the elites, don't need to do anything like that. They know what's best for everyone else, don't they? :roll: So you presume to think that only evil white men would think you're wrong.

Oh come on, I never said that. You know, I'm friends with a lot of Republicans, Democrats, and people of all ethnicities. I don't think any one type of people are evil. (Yeah, If some of my er... more "liberal" friends heard me right now... Whew.) (Can I be honest with you? Whatever I might say... I don't hate anyone. I can't. My family and friends might give me daggers if I told them that I don't hate people like Trump or Pence, but... I don't. I might hate things that they do. I do hate some of the things that they do. It's not really in my nature to hate people though. Not unless I know them. I don't hate you. I don't hate republicans. I don't hate straight people. I don't hate white people (I am white) I don't hate nazis... wait did I just say that? Heh. You get my gist.


Thane Blackthorn wrote: And that all those you deem to be members of the oppressed automatically will agree with you. I mean how could they not....you're only trying to help them by banning words, shutting down free speech, shouting down ideas not your own, keeping everyone in their segregated safe zones, infantilizing entire races of people, and keeping everyone divided with party politics? Look at all you are doing for the cause of....freedom? No that's not it. Just what the hell is your goal anyway? All I see is a bunch of whiny bitching and moaning about your feelings and being upset when you don't get your way.
And... the warm fuzzy feeling I just had is gone. Well then, okay. So offensive words and the like is just... free speech, and so is calling people names... free speech. *sighs*
Well. Fuck this. My goal? I really want people to stop fighting. I want people to stop hating. I want people to all sing Kumbaya and hold hands under a tree together... Kidding on the last part. No, mostly I want to help people. Not just one type.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:Your whole ideology is built on a foundation that consists of two main ingredients. Ego and feelings. If it doesn't feel right it must be wrong. Truth, facts, logic all have no place here unless the feeling is right.

You're right. I hate logic. :lol: kidding.

Thane Blackthorn wrote: And the ego to think that you're speaking for anyone other than yourself and your closed minded, goose stepping PC thugs. I mean I do feel for you. I'm sorry that you have experienced bullying. (At least you make it sound as if you have been.) But what you fail to see is that now you are the bully.
I haven't been bullied as much as some people. I really care about my friends though. All of the people I know who are transgender or non-binary have not been forceful; but rather, if you want to be friends with them, or have good relations with them, then you should really use their correct pronouns. Which I think is pretty reasonable. After all, they use your correct pronouns, do they not?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:Remember that scenario you set up. I noticed that my tweeking of it got an odd response. As if you didn't even get what it was about on your end, let alone mine. But I noticed that you didn't seem to have any problem with a small group of people, who were not being oppressed, and who had other options, still forcing things to get their way. And I find that interesting and very telling.

Er... What? I don't really understand what you're saying. Maybe rephrase? Sorry... or it could be I'm just a little forgetful.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:People who share your ideology are just making up problems that don't exist at all, or taking on relatively small problems that need little to no attention at this time.

If it's such a small problem, then why is it getting so much attention? Sorry if that sounded smartass. What I mean to say is, while it might seem small to you, it obviously seems like a big issue to many other people, otherwise it wouldn't be so prominent.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:I don't disagree with you because your trans, or queer, or gay, or a man, or a woman, or black, or Latino, or a Muslim, or whatever other little box you want to stick other people into. I disagree with you because you're wrong.

Well... Thanks. I guess.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:
GellertGPhoenix wrote:Your professors couldn't teach a class properly?


Who said anything about my professor(s)? Thankfully I was out of school by the time the patients started taking over the asylum. I just know people still in that environment, and I have seen and read up on what's going on. One doesn't actually have to be in the desert to know that there's very little water there.

Another poorly delivered joke on my behalf... No, I presumed as much. I was making the point of, how could you know that professors are struggling to teach, if they didn't do so when teaching you?


Thane Blackthorn wrote:
GellertGPhoenix wrote:Well. That's rude. No need to make it personal buddy. I'm just trying to be myself. I'm not believing in my gender any more than you are yours. Chill it. I am not attacking you, so you don't need to take a jab at me. Live and let live, if you get my drift... You know, if you're wondering why LGBT+ people go crazy pissed at you or people with a similar mindset, this might be it.


Personal? Look, if telling you the truth hurts, and you take it personally, nothing I can do about that. It's certainly not going to stop me from stating it. (At least till you little fascists get any real power and start throwing people into re-education camps.)

Your truth may not be mine. There is no "right" for all people. There is no universal "truth." You can say things like "There is no such thing as genders other than man and woman"- but how do you know unless you are living that life? How do we know that the sky is blue? Someone else might perceive it as what we would consider green.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:
GellertGPhoenix wrote:Okay. I hear you. And if I were in your situation, who knows? Maybe I would think the same. I'm not, though. I'm from the standpoint of a person who has had to call friends down from that place. I'm a person who knows that those people are alienated, teased, abused and raped. It's not a mental disorder. They are among a society where they do not fit in. Something a sociology teacher pointed out to me... Suicide rates are higher in "happier" countries than those in countries that are more "depressed." You ask, why is this? It's because, in the "happy" countries, the people that are depressed, feel more so, because they are more alone. In a country where most people are unhappy, there will be less suicides because people will feel like their life matches that of those around them.


Sociology teacher? Weren't you paying attention? They may as well rename that class Politically Correct Indoctrination 101. You can't rely on anything in the way of facts in classes like that. It's filled with half truths, made up data from no reliable source, propaganda, and just out right lies.
There were actually very many sources sited in my class... All of which are reliable, to my knowledge.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:(At least by your made up standards.)
Are you asking me to bring up statistics?

Thane Blackthorn wrote: But having said that just simple reason should dictate that the suicide rate in the trans world and others who have been, or currently are, being oppressed being relatively the same. Maybe a point or two difference at best. (And I'm talking about peoples who live in the happy go lucky western world.) But you're seeing a 30+ percentage points spike. Sorry, you'll have to do a lot better than that to convince me that their suicide rate and their transgenderism isn't apart of the same mental disorder.
Because there are plenty of satisfied, happy transgendered and transexual adults, and even adolescents, provided an environment where they are accepted as part of society.



And this video... Hate to say it, but... It's kind of BS.
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Post April 19th, 2017, 5:37 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Agree about what exactly? Colleges have had alliances and black student union and the jewish club and ROTC and all sorts of shit for as long as I can remember....and if I have read your posts right, that's what a safe space is. And if thats what it is...it is hardly a new concept.

Thane, you DO NOT get to tell anybody what is possible and what isn't possible in terms of Gender, Sexuality or whatever else. You do not get to do that, and trying to tell them(you see what this straight, white, male is doing? Taking great care to use a preferred pro-noun. Look at that! I'M STILL ALIVE!) that it is nothing more then a condition is nothing less then gross and offensive.

You are clearly blinded by your own prejudice and intolerance, which is clearly stemmed from nothing short of blatant ignorance.

But lets think for a moment here. Lets look at the other hand.

We may not have needed to have things like LGBTQ alliances, or Jewish Clubs or Japanese Clubs or Black Student Unions or whatever had we, as the majority, not been hell bent for so long on keeping everything that was different than ourselves hidden, or shoved down into the dirt.

Had we accepted all people as being equal from the start...we wouldn't have these things, because there wouldn't be any segergation. People wouldn't feel ashamed of being different.

Wars have been fought, people have died because of this ignorance and intolerance...when is it enough? When does it end?

Give it a rest, Thane. You're on the wrong side of history, mate. Just take a look....

It happened with blacks. Its happened with Latinos. Its happened with Jews. Its happened with the First Nations...for fuck's sake, its happened with women!

Now its happening with the LGBTQ community.

Do you know what always happens? Society learns about them. Society learns that different isn't always bad. In fact, often its not....but society always comes around in the end.
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Post April 19th, 2017, 1:08 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

GinChaser wrote:snip


Actually quoting you isn't worth the effort.

Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem. Maybe I haven't explained myself properly. Either way you'v got me all wrong.

You're right. I don't have the right to tell people what sexual orientation they should be. But I haven't said that I should be able to. I don't care what adults want to do with other adults sexually as long as it's consensual. And I don't think anyone else should care about what adults do with one another sexually. As far as gender goes, that's different. Gender isn't about sex, it's just BASIC biology. In humans there are only two genders. Now if you want to create a made up word and then say that's your gender. That's what you identify as; then be my guest. Go ahead. Call yourself whatever you like. But that doesn't mean I have to acknowledge that farce. Do you see the difference? You get to call yourself ...whatever, and I get to live in the real world. It's a win/win.

And yes, there have been clubs for different ideologies and interests for a long time. Even for those who are LGBT. One must ask themselves if there has been all these clubs on campuses for that long and they served the same purpose as safe spaces, then what's the point of creating safe spaces if they are only serving the same purpose? Maybe because safe spaces aren't that. Maybe they serve a different purpose. Maybe you might want to educate yourself before you speak. Just a thought.

You say society always comes around. Well maybe not always, though I do agree that it should. But that's the point I've been making. That in order for society to come around there has to be openness. We have to accept that there are certain truths out there. But that there are certain things that are different for everyone based on their life experiences and that's okay too. That we shouldn't be segregating ourselves into safe spaces. That we shouldn't be limiting free speech. That all ideas must have a voice, and that those ideas can then be challenged. That to get to know one another we have to be in an environment that allows for the free expression of ideas and we can only get to know one another, know about our differences, know how much we really are alike, by creating such an environment. That's how we progress. And that's what college campuses USED to be. Not shouting down any idea we don't like. But engaging those ideas we don't agree with. Not assuming that someone who disagrees with us is a bigot. (And I see that you had no problem going there with me. Makes you part of the problem, not the solution.) But engaging that person with dialog. Find out where they are coming from with their view point. Expressing our view point. Maybe coming to a common conclusion where neither of us is wrong or right, but because we came together we can take steps forward together.

Not gonna happen when certain people who don't get their way, or don't hear something they don't like throw a temper tantrum, have a little riot, and then go running off to their designated, segregated, safe space to pat themselves on the back for being so diverse. The contradictory nature of this whole movement would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

@ GellertGPhoenix

Let's say I were to say that global warming was bullshit. (I'm not saying that it is, it's an example). You'd probably be one of the people telling me that I was full of bullshit. Then I'd ask why. Then you going running off to...science. Showing me how science proves global warming. How it was a fact because of....science. And yet when I say there are only two genders, you say no. But I say....wait for it.....just a moment.....science. See you PC regressives on the left are no better than the religious zealots on the right. You cherry pick what you want to agree with. If the facts are something that agrees with what makes you feel good or what you already believe, then it's in. If a fact disagrees with you, or makes you feel bad then it's out.

In any case we're just covering the same old ground, and I'm tired of the redundancy.

Have fun with your safe space buddies and silencing the opposition, (not by using a stronger argument but by shouting them down). Take care.
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Post April 19th, 2017, 2:51 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

You are the one that refuses to see whats true here. Not us. I frankly dont care if Safe Spaces are ruining the unversity experience for people. What I care about is how ass backwards your veiw point is. This is what Gellert identifies as, and you dont get to tell them that they don't. You don't get to say its all anatomy. You dont get to say that there is something physiologically wrong with them or, whats probably worse, that they are blatantly lying about it. You may not have said that out right, but you definitely implied it here. You complain that we refuse to see things from your point of veiw, yet someone has told you that they identify as non-binary...yet you refuse to accept that. You just keep perpetuating the same crap. No, you aren't. You are either one or the other. You don't get to be both. Its anatomically impossible. You either have a Y or an extra X.

Last I checked, you aren't a psychiatrist or a doctor that specializes in gender reassignment.

You may have had a leg to stand on if you didn't start attacking their gender identity, but you did...and thats something that I won't stand by and say nothing about.
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Post April 19th, 2017, 9:36 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:
GinChaser wrote:snip


Actually quoting you isn't worth the effort.


That is called spitting in my friend's face, and I will not tolerate it.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem. Maybe I haven't explained myself properly. Either way you'v got me all wrong.

Thane, the good news is, I think I can comprehend exactly what you're saying. The bad news is, I think that you are wrong. I think saying that is fair, because you evidently think that I am wrong. You also think that my gender is wrong, and that my life style is a cult. I don't know how things are where you're from, so I can't speak for your perception.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:As far as gender goes, that's different. Gender isn't about sex, it's just BASIC biology. In humans there are only two genders. Now if you want to create a made up word and then say that's your gender. That's what you identify as; then be my guest. Go ahead. Call yourself whatever you like. But that doesn't mean I have to acknowledge that farce. Do you see the difference? You get to call yourself ...whatever, and I get to live in the real world. It's a win/win.

I denied my gender up until I was about 16. I even remember in middleschool, my teacher assigned a paper asking about the pros and cons of being a boy or a girl. I wrote my paper, and I ended my paper by saying that I was a girl, and that I was happy being a girl. I remember writing that as a lie. I didn't know how I knew that it was a lie, but I did. I wrote that lie because I thought, what if someone suspects that I'm not a girl? Or that I'm not... always a girl? I was trying to convince myself that I really was a girl 24-7 and that there was nothing wrong with that. That was middleschool. I was pretty paranoid then. Even when I finally did come to terms with it and realize that they was a word for it, I still didn't tell anyone for a while. Now that I'm out I feel happier. I feel like I can be myself, and that I can be proud of myself. Most of the people around me accept me for who I am. Not for how I label myself. Not for some club I'm joining, or "a place for coloring books and puppies." So It's not a win-win. A label doesn't mean anything if people deny it meaning. I'm not a huge fan of labels myself, but I don't want to squeeze myself into a box where I don't fit.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:what's the point of creating safe spaces if they are only serving the same purpose? Maybe because safe spaces aren't that. Maybe they serve a different purpose. Maybe you might want to educate yourself before you speak. Just a thought.
I think part of the point of safe spaces(which you seem to so despise) is that... Well. They actually do keep people safe, believe it or not. That's not to say people are denying reality, or escaping from society... but if someone wants to feel safe, I imagine that a safe space would be a good place for that.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:You say society always comes around. Well maybe not always, though I do agree that it should. But that's the point I've been making. That in order for society to come around there has to be openness. We have to accept that there are certain truths out there. But that there are certain things that are different for everyone based on their life experiences and that's okay too. That we shouldn't be segregating ourselves into safe spaces. That we shouldn't be limiting free speech. That all ideas must have a voice, and that those ideas can then be challenged. That to get to know one another we have to be in an environment that allows for the free expression of ideas and we can only get to know one another, know about our differences, know how much we really are alike, by creating such an environment. That's how we progress.

This single paragraph might be your best one. Everything you say here is true. So true in fact, that I came up with... a dare, if you will. Go to a safe space. Attend a meeting, or however safe spaces in your area work. Meet people, treat them with respect, and see what happens. If you want to offer me a dare in return, go ahead.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:And that's what college campuses USED to be. Not shouting down any idea we don't like.
If people are shouting down your ideas, then I'm sorry. If I'm shouting down your ideas, then I'm also sorry. But remember, these are ideas, not "truths". The difference is generally, ideas start with "I think ___" and so called "truths" start out with "You should believe ___"

Thane Blackthorn wrote:But engaging those ideas we don't agree with. Not assuming that someone who disagrees with us is a bigot.
I don't recall saying that you were a bigot. I don't think that you are, because bigots tend to think that they are better than others, and are intolerant of people who disagree with them, correct? Unless I am mistaken, you are saying that people who are non-binary are not so much beneath you, but rather are confused and mentally ill. In other words, you couldn't care less about them, so long as it doesn't affect you or people around you. Which is the twin brother of bigotry, if we're being politically correct.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:Not gonna happen when certain people who don't get their way, or don't hear something they don't like throw a temper tantrum, have a little riot, and then go running off to their designated, segregated, safe space to pat themselves on the back for being so diverse. The contradictory nature of this whole movement would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

@ GellertGPhoenix


...Wow. You had to go there. Nice.

Thane Blackthorn wrote:Let's say I were to say that global warming was bullshit. (I'm not saying that it is, it's an example). You'd probably be one of the people telling me that I was full of bullshit. Then I'd ask why. Then you going running off to...science. Showing me how science proves global warming. How it was a fact because of....science. And yet when I say there are only two genders, you say no. But I say....wait for it.....just a moment.....science. See you PC regressives on the left are no better than the religious zealots on the right. You cherry pick what you want to agree with. If the facts are something that agrees with what makes you feel good or what you already believe, then it's in. If a fact disagrees with you, or makes you feel bad then it's out.

Science only reaches so far. The human brain is one of the most unexplored regions. Before neurological science was looked into, there were artists and writers that demonstrated similar theories through their work. We know ourselves better than science does. No one can tell us who we are or how we feel. Science cannot touch that.


Thane Blackthorn wrote:In any case we're just covering the same old ground, and I'm tired of the redundancy.

Rather exhausting, isn't it?
Thane Blackthorn wrote:Have fun with your safe space buddies and silencing the opposition, (not by using a stronger argument but by shouting them down). Take care.

I will thank you. Speaking of silencing, did you know that the national "Day of Silence" is Friday? (April 21) You should partake. :lol:
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Post April 20th, 2017, 3:55 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

GinChaser wrote:snip


Leg to stand on? Might have? I'm the only one in this conversation with any legs at all. And for the record I'm not saying there are only two genders. BIOLOGY says that there are only two genders. You know a branch of science that deals in facts.

And last time I checked you weren't a biologist. See how that can be turned around? See how stupid that kind of reasoning is? To imply that someone can't know something, or have an opinion on something unless they have some kind of alphabet soup written at the end of their name; why that's just retarded. (Yeah I know, such a politically incorrect word. LOL)

And just where did I attack anyones sexuality? Oh, yeah, I didn't. Just you reading things that weren't there.

And do you know how many different identifiers there are? How many different pronouns these PCers (Yeah I know it's not a word, but I think you'll get the gist.), are demanding? Last count I think it was over 70. And that number is growing. Jesus some of these ass clowns are identifying as animals. Some are identifing as fantasy characters. Wolfkin, elfkin, pixiekin, rainbow pooping unicornkin. Sorry pal, I ain't buying it. It's such a joke and would be laughable if you didn't have some of these deluded idiots actually trying to get laws past that if they're not referred to by their "proper" pronoun that the person not talking about them correctly can actually be sited. And in Canada there are already such laws. No sir, this fantasy bullshit needs to be nipped in the bud. And it's starts with one. Once we allow ourselves to be forced to address one delusional person by their fantasy pronoun they all want to be addressed by their fantasy pronoun. Again, I ain't buying what your're selling.

I mean what is it? These people just read to much Magna? I personally think that a large portion of these people are just trying to fit in. Being a member of a minority group, being one of the oppressed masses is just the "in" "cool" thing to be now a days. So just say you're a different gender. That you identify as whatever. And boom you're in the club. (or safe space if you prefer.) And then I think there's another portion of these people that are just trolling. Seeing just how far they can take this shit. Maybe Anonymous came out from behind their keyboards.

So you just go on white knighting these assholes. Keep enabling them. You know, whatever floats your boat. But please give that self righteous indignation crap a rest. You ain't convincing anyone.

@GellertGPhoenix

Yeah, I know you didn't call me a bigot. But if you notice, everything above where I typed @GellertGPhoenix is me responding to Gin. Everything bellow @ GellertGPhoenix is me responding to you. And he did call me a bigot.

Come on Gellert, I don't expect much from Gin, but I do expect you to be able to stay on top of this shit. Sheeesh.
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Post April 20th, 2017, 7:38 am

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

It makes you what I like to call....wrong.

You can keep leaning on that crutch man, but it doesn't make you any less short sighted.

But since we are speaking of biology...here is a bit of science for you. Your chromosomal biology has nothing to do with what your gender association is or what your sexuality is.

Science doesn't begin to explain why these things happen. Science also doesn't explain why humans are generally monogamus, when there is more females born to males. Its called Divine Ratio, its found all over the place...and its there to promote species growth.

If Biology had any say in the matter, I'm sure there wouldnt be gay people...because that also doesn"t promote growth in the species.

But your Anatomy and your behavior are not connected and there is SO much about the brain that scientists just do not understand.

But since we're on the subject...the World Health Organization recognizes its validity as well as various courts around the world including Australia, US and my own native Canada.


And Im with you about the animal, fantasy creature thing. Thats probably just an attention grab or a mental disorder or something...but you can't lump non-binary in there with that. It was officially recognized sometime ago.

FYI, when Gellert says to you....I identify as non-binary, and you say...No you don't. Biology says thats impossible...

That's attacking someone's gender.

And I called you a bigot...because that's what you fucking are. Putting somebody down because they happen to be different then you is bigotry. Get a clue.


No I'm not going to be the guy that defends people that are obviously doing it for attention....but when someone like you comes along and negs on someone's recognized gender identity...yeah I'll have something to say about that.
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Post April 20th, 2017, 2:44 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Before I go quoting something long, I might point out out that pronouns such as "they" are already in existence. We already use them as our default when we don't know someone's gender "I am going to the doctor. They are going to check up on me." Start counting the number of times that you use it, and maybe it will seem more natural. I can't speak for other pronouns, but hey, whatever works. I don't see a problem with pronouns such as xi xem xers or ze xem zers or whatever they are. They sound so similar to existing pronouns, it's really just a slur of the tongue.

@Thane Blackthorn (I get it now thanks :))
Thane Blackthorn wrote:I mean what is it? These people just read to much Magna? I personally think that a large portion of these people are just trying to fit in. Being a member of a minority group, being one of the oppressed masses is just the "in" "cool" thing to be now a days. So just say you're a different gender. That you identify as whatever. And boom you're in the club. (or safe space if you prefer.) And then I think there's another portion of these people that are just trolling. Seeing just how far they can take this shit. Maybe Anonymous came out from behind their keyboards.


Do you mean Manga? I read Manga. So does my twin brother. He's straight, I'm not. He's cis, I'm not. What does Manga have to do with this? :lol: I personally think that all of these people are just trying o fit in. Not in the way that you mean though...
Saying that you are a different gender in order to be a part of a club, or to be cool... that's going a bit far, don't you think? It's like when people say "trans women are just gay men trying trying to attract men." Living one lie to hide another... It doesn't work that way. Sure, there are trolls that do push the limits. There will always be trolls. Just like there will always be that one creep who goes in the wrong bathroom with the wrong intent just to start a riot about transgender bathroom rights. It only takes a few. It doesn't mean that those people represent the group as a whole.
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Post April 21st, 2017, 1:18 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

GinChaser wrote:And Im with you about the animal, fantasy creature thing. Thats probably just an attention grab or a mental disorder or something...but you can't lump non-binary in there with that. It was officially recognized sometime ago.


You are such a huge hypocrite. And that's the problem with having an ideology based on feelings. Person A is a male because their DNA says they are, but they feel like a female, (As if they'd know what it feels like in the first place.), and that's perfectly okay in your mind. Person B is a male because their DNA says they are, but they feel like a sparrow, but that's not okay with you because......feelings? You are such a bigot. (Sorry couln't resist that one.) The argument for or against one is the same argument for or against the other. You can't have it both ways. If people can change their gender based on their feelings then they should be allowed to change anything they want based on their feelings. Who are you to tell wolf boy that he isn't a wolf? You cherry pick who should be able to change what based on nothing but your feelings. At least I'm consistent. I think both are either doing it for attention or have mental issues. And just because certain "Official" bodies and/or institutions, that have histories of being swayed by public and/or governmental opinion, recognize something doesn't make it so. Maybe they don't recognize wolf boy today, but put enough pressure on them and I'm sure wolf boy will be recognized tomorrow. Then I guess maybe you'll change how you feel about it. :roll:

@who ever the hell wants to read it

I've finally figured out what's wrong. What the problem is with some of you. You're idiots. (He said in his best House impersonation.)

Gender is just biology. That's all it is or is supposed to be. You use it to identify yourselves as a person. To identify what you like to do sexually. Gender doesn't care what you do or do not do with your genitals. Your gender doesn't encapsulate who you are as a human being. You are confusing gender with gender roles and stereotypes based on gender. They're separate. You are not your gender. You having a penis or not having a penis is just that and nothing more. Everything else is up to you. You don't have to compartmentalize yourselves. You don't have to create new genders that only serve to create new made up roles and stereotypes. We as a society in the West have been breaking away from roles and stereotypes before you were born, And in the broad historical sense we've been moving fairly quickly with it. And we didn't have to redefine the word gender. We didn't have to create made up genders. We didn't have to make up new pronouns. Your movement is taking steps backwards, not forwards. Instead of beaking down gender issues, your creating more. Instead of breaking down gender roles and stereotypes you're just creating more. You are creating more problems not less. It's pathetic. Stop compartmentalizing yourselves, set yourself free from the box, and move forward.


Out! (Drops mic)
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Post April 21st, 2017, 2:44 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:
I've finally figured out what's wrong. What the problem is with some of you. You're idiots. (He said in his best House impersonation.)

Gender is just biology. That's all it is or is supposed to be. You use it to identify yourselves as a person. To identify what you like to do sexually. Gender doesn't care what you do or do not do with your genitals. Your gender doesn't encapsulate who you are as a human being. You are confusing gender with gender roles and stereotypes based on gender. They're separate. You are not your gender. You having a penis or not having a penis is just that and nothing more. Everything else is up to you. You don't have to compartmentalize yourselves. You don't have to create new genders that only serve to create new made up roles and stereotypes. We as a society in the West have been breaking away from roles and stereotypes before you were born, And in the broad historical sense we've been moving fairly quickly with it. And we didn't have to redefine the word gender. We didn't have to create made up genders. We didn't have to make up new pronouns. Your movement is taking steps backwards, not forwards. Instead of beaking down gender issues, your creating more. Instead of breaking down gender roles and stereotypes you're just creating more. You are creating more problems not less. It's pathetic. Stop compartmentalizing yourselves, set yourself free from the box, and move forward.

Out! (Drops mic)


Thane, you are right. Gender does not care what you do with your genitals. It does not encapsulate who you are as a human being. A person's gender doesn't define them as a person. I am Non-Binary. Non-binary is not me.
Now...
I feel really bad, bringing science and studies and technical what-nots to a Harry Potter forum... but there actually are studies behind transgendered people, proving that they do not have a mental illness, and that it is not just emotions that lead them to these feelings of dysphoria.

There is this study, which involves interviews with 250 transgender people. It found that the majority reported social rejection related to their gender identity, as well as being the victim of violence. The researchers conclude that distress and dysfunction were more strongly predicted by going through those experiences compared to gender incongruence itself.

Now let's take a look at what constitutes as a mental disorder.
"A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning."

Seeing as Transgendered people are not typically in dysfunction, and do not typically have their gender come in the way of their cognition or emotional regulation... I would say that they do not have a mental disorder. Convinced yet? Maybe you want something a little more "sciency"? Alright then.

As many people know, male and female brains on average have a slightly different structure. Because of this, several studies have looked at transgendered brains. Studies revealed that the brain structures of the transgendered people were more similar in some ways to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their gender at birth. For example, the female-to-male subjects had relatively thin subcortical areas, which tend to be thinner in men than in women. Male-to-female subjects tended to have thinner cortical regions in the right hemisphere, which resembles that of a female brain.

There were also studies where people have measured the responses of boys and girls with gender dysphoria to echolike sounds produced by the inner ear in response to a clicking noise. Boys with gender dysphoria responded more like typical females, who have a stronger response to these sounds. Girls with gender dysphoria also responded like typical females.

Studies have also shown that in the case of twins, should one be transgendered, the other will be more likely to be transgendered as well.

So, is it emotional? Or biological?

(Drops mic)

http://time.com/4424589/being-transgend ... der-study/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/re ... l-disorder
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... der-brain/
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/artic ... ality.html
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Post April 21st, 2017, 5:38 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Thane Blackthorn wrote:
GinChaser wrote:And Im with you about the animal, fantasy creature thing. Thats probably just an attention grab or a mental disorder or something...but you can't lump non-binary in there with that. It was officially recognized sometime ago.


You are such a huge hypocrite. And that's the problem with having an ideology based on feelings. Person A is a male because their DNA says they are, but they feel like a female, (As if they'd know what it feels like in the first place.), and that's perfectly okay in your mind. Person B is a male because their DNA says they are, but they feel like a sparrow, but that's not okay with you because......feelings? You are such a bigot. (Sorry couln't resist that one.) The argument for or against one is the same argument for or against the other. You can't have it both ways. If people can change their gender based on their feelings then they should be allowed to change anything they want based on their feelings. Who are you to tell wolf boy that he isn't a wolf? You cherry pick who should be able to change what based on nothing but your feelings. At least I'm consistent. I think both are either doing it for attention or have mental issues. And just because certain "Official" bodies and/or institutions, that have histories of being swayed by public and/or governmental opinion, recognize something doesn't make it so. Maybe they don't recognize wolf boy today, but put enough pressure on them and I'm sure wolf boy will be recognized tomorrow. Then I guess maybe you'll change how you feel about it. :roll:

@who ever the hell wants to read it

I've finally figured out what's wrong. What the problem is with some of you. You're idiots. (He said in his best House impersonation.)

Gender is just biology. That's all it is or is supposed to be. You use it to identify yourselves as a person. To identify what you like to do sexually. Gender doesn't care what you do or do not do with your genitals. Your gender doesn't encapsulate who you are as a human being. You are confusing gender with gender roles and stereotypes based on gender. They're separate. You are not your gender. You having a penis or not having a penis is just that and nothing more. Everything else is up to you. You don't have to compartmentalize yourselves. You don't have to create new genders that only serve to create new made up roles and stereotypes. We as a society in the West have been breaking away from roles and stereotypes before you were born, And in the broad historical sense we've been moving fairly quickly with it. And we didn't have to redefine the word gender. We didn't have to create made up genders. We didn't have to make up new pronouns. Your movement is taking steps backwards, not forwards. Instead of beaking down gender issues, your creating more. Instead of breaking down gender roles and stereotypes you're just creating more. You are creating more problems not less. It's pathetic. Stop compartmentalizing yourselves, set yourself free from the box, and move forward.


Out! (Drops mic)


By putting ourselves into another box...? Because that is, in fact, what you are suggesting.

Yes that is perfectly ok in my mind because associating with another gender, is still them associating as a human. Instead of them associating as a wolf or a dog or some creature that, to my knowledge, doesn't even exist.

I'm sure you see the difference there, and really, what a stupid argument to have.

However....I will let John Oliver take it from here.


http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... hould.html


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -kids.html
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Post April 22nd, 2017, 11:32 pm

Re: "Safe" Spaces ruining university education?

Actually, looking more into the biological realm of transgender/non-binary, I just had someone explain it to me in a way that might make more sense. Being transgendered is caused by hormones, the same as being cisgendered (born in the right body) is. There are testosterone washes during the fifth and eleventh months of pregnancy. During the eleventh month, depending on how strong or weak these washes are, the brain may organize into mostly female or mostly male patterns. So, you might get a mostly or partially feminized brain in a male body, or a mostly or partially masculine brain in a female body. I don't know if I did a good job of explaining that, but hopefully you catch my drift.

People are born this way. You can't choose what kind of brain you have.

There's something else you might want to hear about, if you haven't already.
There is someone called David Reimer, who was born a male, 1965. His name was originally Bruce, and he had a twin brother called Brian. They were both circumcised at 8 months, but Bruce's penis was destroyed in the operation. Psychologist and Sexologist John Money suggested a sex change. He had a theory that a boy could be made a girl, so long as they had the right parts, and the right parenting. Bruce became Brenda. At first Brenda behaved just as a little girl should in that time; playing with dolls, making cookies, and wearing dresses. Dr. Money's theory appeared to be accurate. Yet at the age of seven, Brenda began act masculine, and started to reject the femininity that was being forced on by family and society, as well as Dr. Money, who used unethical tactics to attempt to suppress this attitude. Brenda finally found out at the age of fourteen, immediately requested to come off of the hormones, and became David. David had a girl's body. David was born a boy, but was quite literally given a girl's body and upbringing. David later committed suicide at age 38 after suffering from years of severe depression. Would you say that David was not a boy? His situation is the same as any transgendered person. He had the body of a woman, and female hormones. Does that make him a girl?
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