but he could have learned to make a horcrux before he turned 17.
he killed the riddles summer 1943.
he most probably have asked slughorn about horcruxes sept 1943 (or oct...)
he succeeded sometime in december, before dec31 (where he would turn 17)
because then there would be no differentiation between a horcrux caused by myrtle's death and by the riddles' death. _________________
I love my handsome Erik
But there is, and most importantly in Voldemort's mind there is a HUGE difference.
Dumbledore makes the point of saying that with Harry's death, he believed Voldemort was going to make his 6th and final horcrux with Harry's death, because he saw that is an important kill for him to have.
It's about history and linking things together for Voldemort because he gets a kick out of it. The Diary was a way to open the Chamber of Secrets, what better death to use for the CoS diary than the one girl he killed using the CoS.
While I tend to agree with you that there might not be a difference between using one kill or another for the purposes of just becoming immortal and creating horcruxes, TECHNICALLY, but what you are forgetting is that it does matter tremendously to Voldemort.
Why would he link his father's death or his grandparents death to the CoS diary? To Voldemort it wouldn't make sense. Using Myrtle would, because in his warped mind, it fits, it MEANS something that way.
Plus you have to go back to when he was applying for the DADA job, he first asked Dippet at 18 to teach, he said he was too young. He was still very handsome at this point as Ms. Smith who had the Cup and the Locket, was very taken with the young Riddle, she got all dressed up and thought him to be charming.
This means he was still pretty much whole, he had committed murders and would murder her 2 days later, but the pieces of soul hadn't been extracted yet.
How do I know this? Because 10 years after he first asked to become a teacher he goes back to Dumbledore who is now the headmaster and once again applies for the DADA job.
Passage from page 441 of HBP
Voldemort had entered the room. His features were not those Harry had seen emerge from the great stone cauldron almost two years ago: They were not as snake-like, the eyes were not scarlet, the face not yet masklike, and yet he was no longer handsome Tom Riddle. It was as though his features had been burned and blurred; they were waxy and oddly distorted, and the whites of the eyes now had a permanetly bloody look, though the pupils were not yet the slits that Harry knew they would become.
He had been gone for years, missing, no one knew exactly what he was doing, but Dumbledore had heard of the group that called themselves the Death Eaters.
As he cyphered soul and put them in objects, he became less human, and more evil. Dumbledore says "The brain and mind of Voldemort has always remained but his soul is less and less human."
His change in appearance and Dumbledore's references tell me pretty much without a doubt that Voldemort learned how to create the horcruxes after he left Borgin and Burks and had the Locket, Ring, Cup, in his possession. He came back to Hogwarts so that not only could he get the job but so he could explore Hogwarts more thoroughly as a teacher and to find something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's, in my opinion, because now he knew how to come Horcruxes.
His appearance and how is changes is very telling to when he learned how to finally do this. He says to Dumbledore during the job interview that he has done "Great Things" in the time he has been gone. _________________
but if you think he only learned how to do horcruxes after borgin and burkes, then he couldn't have done the diary with myrtles death. You make a good argument for it though, after B&B I mean. _________________
I said that already, it's apparent that there is no particular time from when he has to cypher the soul that he split out of his body into an object.
halfbloodprincess has pointed out he was young still when he murdered his family and took the gaunt ring, yet there had to be at least a few months that passed because he was asking Slughorn during the next school year how to make horcruxes...
If you can wait a month.. or 6 months, why can't you wait years?
We know he doesn't just figure out how to make a horcrux and then kill someone then pull the soul out and throw it in the object once he creates it because the deaths have to "mean" something to him. So he's not just going to kill just anyone. But then there has to be a way that he can pick out that piece of split soul to use in the horcrux, because he kills quite often we assume.
There is nothing that gives any indication that you can't wait years (or that you have to do it right away) after a murder to create a horcrux, in fact, all the evidence from the books seem to point in the direction that you can wait many years after you've committed a murder. Honestly, where is the soul going to go? It stays with him until until the time he puts it into an object to make a horcrux, it's not just going to float away, out of his body, it's stays with him, it just is no longer one whole piece that is intact.
It's kinda complicated but I think since he killed Myrtle when he was 16, his soul split but he didn't cypher (I use this for lack of a better word) the piece out. But since he did commit murder, that piece of soul would have lingered as the 16 year old Tom Riddle until the time he actuall extracted it and then put it into the diary.
Does that make sense? Does to me, but I know it's a lot to take in.
I'm pretty definite this is how it must work, otherwise the continuity of the books and Voldemort's background would be very inconsistent.
Basically what we are trying to do is describe a soul as a tangible object, when it is not, at least not in real life. No one has ever seen a soul or felt a soul, you just know you have one, it's what makes you conscience and gives you conscience.
But I have to say that I'm sure that as a tangible object that Voldemort doesn't just have pieces of soul floating away everytime he commits murder. And his appearance does not change until he makes a horcrux and rids himself of that piece of soul from his body, that makes his body change and deform. He stayed handsome after Myrtle's, Ms. Smith's, and the death of the three Riddle's. Yet after he did "Great Things" whe he was away, his appearance had changed, and he came back to Hogwarts to try to get his hands on more items to complete his Horcrux collection. Voldemort has killed hundreds if not thousands of people, because he created an army of Inferi, yet I doubt his appearance deformed after these murders, because he did not used these particular deaths to create a horcrux.
There's probably a reason why Voldemort is the only wizard to have ever had more than 1 horcrux that Dumbledore could ever imagine, because it's an insanely complicated magical process and us as muggles just can't come to grasps fully on how it all works. _________________
If you can wait a month.. or 6 months, why can't you wait years?
because he cannot wait to become immortal.. there's only one chance at life. if you are killed, youre dead, there's no coming back. so he had to make himself immortal immediately so as to prevent such things.
he probably learned how to do it right away (in 3 months' time perhaps) since he was a very intelligent student anyway.
so if you mean that his first horcrux was made after he had left school, then his soul must have been older - 20 to 22 years old perhaps. he cant have half a soul that is 16 years old and another half soul that is 20 years old? both souls would have to be the same age. they will only be of a different age (16 in the diary and 20 in his body) if he had already separated that bit of soul from his body and encased it in a diary. _________________
I love my handsome Erik
If you can wait a month.. or 6 months, why can't you wait years?
because he cannot wait to become immortal.. there's only one chance at life. if you are killed, youre dead, there's no coming back. so he had to make himself immortal immediately so as to prevent such things.
he probably learned how to do it right away (in 3 months' time perhaps) since he was a very intelligent student anyway.
so if you mean that his first horcrux was made after he had left school, then his soul must have been older - 20 to 22 years old perhaps. he cant have half a soul that is 16 years old and another half soul that is 20 years old? both souls would have to be the same age. they will only be of a different age (16 in the diary and 20 in his body) if he had already separated that bit of soul from his body and encased it in a diary.
It's all fine and good to say that but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he did it right away. But he wasn't openly killing people, so why would he be worried for his life? He hadn't been killed in 17 years of his life, why would someone just randomly come after him? No, I think he knew he needed to be immortal later on once he started building up an army and going about his noble work.
I've stated my case with plenty of evidence right from the books above and will say no more, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject. _________________
It's all fine and good to say that but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he did it right away.
nor is there evidence that he did it years after.
Quote:
But he wasn't openly killing people, so why would he be worried for his life? He hadn't been killed in 17 years of his life, why would someone just randomly come after him?
you can be killed now or later. it matters not. we all fear death. its not likely to come in your youth when youre still healthy and nobody hates you. but it can still come. of course there was a very slim chance that he was gonna die suddenly. he himself knew that too. but he wasnt taking any chances.
Quote:
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
I guess so... _________________
I love my handsome Erik
Lol, no evidence he did it years after? Did you read my posts?
What about the physical transformations the book describes?
That IS evidence, sorry to say.
There is only small amounts of evidence he did it years after, but IT IS THERE, I typed the passage straight from the book, word-for-word.
You don't have to agree with my assumptions but you can't say it is irreverent by saying it isn't evidence.
You have to dig a little deeper and piece clues together, not just go by what you think would be a good fit for the story.
let me put it this way, it took James, Sirirus, and Peter the better part of their education (5 years almost was it?) to learn how to become animagius.
Do you really think even Tom Riddle could figure out how to make a horcrux which is undoubtly a lot harder magic and DARK magic on top of that, which no information could be found of in Hogwarts, could do all that in 3 months?
well i was refering to strong evidence.
and i also had evidence for my theory, and its not like its gonna make a fancy story whether it was mine or yours that was correct.
well voldemort learned to kill at a very young age, and he was one of hogwarts' most brilliant students, if not the most brilliant.
james and sirius were smart, but not in the ranks of voldemort.
and while james and sirius spent half their time goofing around, voldemort put so much energy into learning about horcruxes.
and if pettigrew was able to learn how to become an animagus at such a young age, it doesnt seem like the kind of task which would require five years of learning from a wizard as powerful as voldemort. _________________
I love my handsome Erik
yep. when did dumbledore become headmaster? i dunno where it suggests that he took the position in 1957 or something. i only know that lupin said dumbledore had become headmaster the year he came to hogwarts.... _________________
I love my handsome Erik
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