What he did wasn't exactly "teasing," it was bullying. I'd be fine with him acting in self or others defense but bullying to bully isn't right and it can make a bad situation even worse. _________________ I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once. But by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog. ~ Dwight Schrute
i dont think its like that, james didnt know what snape would become, he couldnt possibly have known and even if he did it would have been still wrong to pick on snape like that, he had no right and no i would never do something like that myself
i dislike ppl like that mostly, but im ready to forgive james cause i know he was a good guy, but it still was very wrong, as i already said, if he had lived a couple of years more he would've gotten mature enough to realize his mistake
but despite that, i think he was definitely a better guy than snape, he could put his hate for the guy aside to save him from lupin/werewolf when sirius made the "joke", im completely sure snape wouldnt have done the same for james _________________
You are up there!
i dont think its like that, james didnt know what snape would become, he couldnt possibly have known and even if he did it would have been still wrong to pick on snape like that, he had no right and no i would never do something like that myself
i dislike ppl like that mostly, but im ready to forgive james cause i know he was a good guy, but it still was very wrong, as i already said, if he had lived a couple of years more he would've gotten mature enough to realize his mistake
but despite that, i think he was definitely a better guy than snape, he could put his hate for the guy aside to save him from lupin/werewolf when sirius made the "joke", im completely sure snape wouldnt have done the same for james
does this mean you dislike harry cause harry bullied voldemort alot. hehehehe sorry i really couldnt resist saying that. _________________
Put this on your sigi if you REFUSE TO BELIVE that Sirius Remus Tonks Lily James Dumbledore Fred Hedwig Dobby Colin are dead!
yeah, same thing exactly, james picking on adolescent snape who still hadnt been a DE and probably hadnt done nothing really bad in his like, harry defending the world against a mass murderer, like father like son right? _________________
You are up there!
yeah, same thing exactly, james picking on adolescent snape who still hadnt been a DE and probably hadnt done nothing really bad in his like, harry defending the world against a mass murderer, like father like son right?
**goes in to deep trance like trawlawney**
I...sense...SARCASM! _________________
Put this on your sigi if you REFUSE TO BELIVE that Sirius Remus Tonks Lily James Dumbledore Fred Hedwig Dobby Colin are dead!
james was incredibly brave as well, probably just as much as snape, the difference is that snape had the talent and ability to do it
also, you say james picked on snape, which was of course awfully wrong of him, but honestly, think of the ammount of ppl snape himself picks on throughtout all the books and even when he was a teen, we're not sure if he was the one actually picking but he didnt seem to mind his friends using dark magic on other students
and james would have realized his mistake with snape too, im sure, but he died very young
snape went to slytherin cause he strongly wanted to, it was obvious when he was on the train before his first day at hogwarts and he didnt turn into a bad person just because lily stopped being his friend, he wasnt a big person to begin with
and when you say that snape wouldnt have joined the DE if he would've been with lily, well that could have been true, but really for all we know, it could've been the other way round, snape doing a bad effect on lily instead of lily doing a good effect on snape
i dont think a guy so obsessed with dark arts was the best for lily
They never really explain exactly what the Dark Arts are, besides things that are illegal. I do hope to inform you that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's evil. For example, there was a time in even American history where NOT growing hemp (marijuana/pot) was illegal. All farmers were required to.
What side of the law something is doesn't decide whether it is good or evil. It only decides whether or not you can get arrested for it. As we don't entirely know what are the Dark Arts. As it is, the Unforgivables are never confirmed to be Dark Arts, while Horcruxes are. Basically, what the ministry is willing to use (in times of war) is, while illegal, not a Dark Art.
See my point? Besides, being a Slytherin also doesn't make someone evil. The Slytherin house is for the ambitious, clever and the cunning. Do you see evil in there? Because I don't.
Furthermore, Snape is meant to be a more complex character. He came from a hard family life. Now, psychological speaking, if he had not been bullied by the Marauders as much as he had and had had someone there for him, especially if it was more than one person. Lily was his only real friend, and as soon as she left, he turned from mislead to bad.
As soon as he realizes that Voldemort is going for someone he cares for, he immediately changes sides. Keep in mind, this behaviour isn't that odd when you take into account that it was WAR and the Death Eaters didn't think what they were doing was evil or wrong, but good.
And in a way, it was. While misguided, their fear had seeds in truth. Muggleborns did affect their society, and not always in the best of ways. Muggle borns are, with the exception of Hermione (who learns quickly), slow on their belief of things magical and ignorance to the society.
It's sort of like the same thought as illegal immigrants in America. While they are still human, they still need to go through things to be integrated into American society and all that. Not that it works.
James was an arrogant S.O.B. From what I had read from the book, I don't even understand how Lily fell in love with him, seriously. He reminds me of a friend of mine. The everybody either love or hates them. They think they can do anything and are better than they are. Maybe it's because I know someone like James, but I hate the character. He is loathable.
On another note, while Severus is known for being unfair to the other house and sometimes cruel, he never humiliates his students beyond their own doing. For example, he only goes after Neville after he screws up. (While James came and showed of his underwear while he was READING).
He is a teacher, and it is a TEACHING STYLE. Perhaps not the best, but remember, the story is set in England, where there isn't the "you must please everyone" mandate. As a matter of fact, while I'm not entirely sure about now, there were a decent amount of teachers like that in England, not to mention America. Do keep in mind that they recently got rid of the equal of the paddle very recently. (Which, mind you, was very effective.)
And again, the not knowing what someone will become. That's like protecting those who bullied the kids who got so fed up with it that they shot up the school. Sure, he didn't know. THAT IS NO EXCUSE. The best full example of what James put Severus though is in Half Blood Prince.
Turning him upside down and showing off his underwear to a crowd of people. Oh yeah, that's DEFINITELY a good person.
They never really explain exactly what the Dark Arts are, besides things that are illegal. I do hope to inform you that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's evil
i dont remember in all the books that there was ever a dark curse that wasnt used to hurt or manipulate ppl so i dont think that someone who is obsessed with them would ba very nice
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As it is, the Unforgivables are never confirmed to be Dark Arts
eerr... then why do ppl go to jail for using them?
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Besides, being a Slytherin also doesn't make someone evil. The Slytherin house is for the ambitious, clever and the cunning. Do you see evil in there? Because I don't.
i dont remember saying anything about the slytherins in general in my conversation, but most slytherins dont seem to be good ppl, simply because salazar himself doesnt sound like a good guy does he? and if that house is suppossed to have his qualities then its little wonder that most of the ppl who go there arent from the best kind
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As soon as he realizes that Voldemort is going for someone he cares for, he immediately changes sides. Keep in mind, this behaviour isn't that odd when you take into account that it was WAR and the Death Eaters didn't think what they were doing was evil or wrong, but good.
he cares only that his loved one is in danger, all the other innocent lives lost before that he doesnt give a crap does he?
and the DE lack of moral sense so they are not doing good and they are the ones who started the war england was on
all in all, snape was supporting a terrorist society
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And in a way, it was. While misguided, their fear had seeds in truth. Muggleborns did affect their society, and not always in the best of ways. Muggle borns are, with the exception of Hermione (who learns quickly), slow on their belief of things magical and ignorance to the society.
ok now ur defending the DE point of view? i have never ever heard anyone doing that, because most ppl here can distinguish good from evil
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James was an arrogant S.O.B. From what I had read from the book, I don't even understand how Lily fell in love with him, seriously. He reminds me of a friend of mine. The everybody either love or hates them. They think they can do anything and are better than they are. Maybe it's because I know someone like James, but I hate the character. He is loathable.
read this that i said before:
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i think he was definitely a better guy than snape, he could put his hate for the guy aside to save him from lupin/werewolf when sirius made the "joke", im completely sure snape wouldnt have done the same for james
and snape himself acted arrogantly on several occassions, insulting everyone else to make himself feel better and bullying his own students, thats just sad
what james really was at that time is very immature and spoiled, but im sure he grew up eventually (or would have if he would've lived a bit longers)
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On another note, while Severus is known for being unfair to the other house and sometimes cruel, he never humiliates his students beyond their own doing. For example, he only goes after Neville after he screws up
he was a SOB to neville! he bullied him for his lack of talent in the subject , he humilliated harry on several ocassions and hermione and ron too, reread the books if you have missed those
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He is a teacher, and it is a TEACHING STYLE. Perhaps not the best, but remember, the story is set in England, where there isn't the "you must please everyone" mandate
its the saddest most pathetic method of teaching ever, i dont care how many ppl did it before him, it is despicable
and i said this as well before:
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i dont think its like that, james didnt know what snape would become, he couldnt possibly have known and even if he did it would have been still wrong to pick on snape like that, he had no right and no i would never do something like that myself
i dislike ppl like that mostly, but im ready to forgive james cause i know he was a good guy, but it still was very wrong, as i already said, if he had lived a couple of years more he would've gotten mature enough to realize his mistake
james made mistakes where it comes to snape, but he was definitely the better person and lily was right in choosing him, he was corageous too, he was caring he gave his life for his friends and ppl he loved, he had strong moral sense and he seemed overall like a good person to me
he did wrong but do not compare humilliating a guy (not even a weak one, he wasnt picking on the most weak one) in school when he was a stupid teenager to joining a terrorist society and practising arts that hurt people _________________
You are up there!
Both sides have points here. We don't know much about James as an adult. I would assume he grew out of how he was as a teenager. Snape on the other hand has just never been a well adjusted person.
I really don't think he's an inherently bad or evil person though. I agree with serafim_azriel's (cool name ) assessment that he was misguided. Were he truly a "bad" person he wouldn't have gotten out of the DE no matter who Voldemort tried to hurt. And I think his age definitely DID have something to do with him making the decision he did (to join Voldemort). He was what, 21, when Lily and James were killed? I've been that age; I currently teach people who are that age. You're technically an adult but you aren't always making adult decisions. Snape was young, proud to a fault (that guy really couldn't tolerate indignity at all), and he hadn't had a very decent life - all that taken into account would make him an easy recruit for someone like Voldemort. He's certainly far from a model human being, the man is no saint by a long shot. But I also don't think he can't be dismissed as just a bad person.
Reading the previous posts made me think of something I never had before about purebloods' relationship with muggle-borns. It could be that some were afraid of them. Muggle-borns live in both worlds, it could be that people from predominantly wizarding families were fearful that the presence of muggle-borns risked exposing their world (not that that is an excuse for killing them)
Snape's teaching style Oh wow, no - not the best teaching style in the world but boy are there days when I'd love to emulate him, haha. I don't think Snape is someone who should be teaching young children. He could probably get away with his style were he teaching college age students, but you just can't act that way towards young kids. _________________ I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once. But by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog. ~ Dwight Schrute
^ you're making it sound as though snape was clueless when he joined the DE, i simply cant imagine that, snape is a very smart guy (maybe even a genius really) so im sure he knew exactly what he was getting into, so i dont care about his motivation for doing it, he still couldnt have been anything but a bad person when he joined them
and you laugh about snape's teaching methods cause you didnt have to put up with it, i would have so hated him had i been in harry's shoes, im actually very impressed how harry sort of forgave him, i dont think i could've done that _________________
You are up there!
@Bery- I must say, thank you for the personal attacks. I don't agree with the DE point of view, but I understand it. I do not believe in good and evil because the world is more complex than that. While killing someone is a horrible thing to do, it isn't always. Killing in self defense, for example, or killing in the midst of war.
The DE are portrayed as evil because it is a CHILDREN'S BOOK. If it had instead been geared to adults the entire series, it would show that there is more to the sides, I believe. But for children, there is always good and evil.
Keep in mind what I said earlier about whoever wins in the long run is the good guy. Hitler is considered an evil man for leading his people to kill so many. Stalin, if you even look at his reign as dictator, killed many many more people, but he is not considered evil. Why? Because of what those deaths achieved. He brought the country out of, basically, the middle ages and into the industrial era.
Therefore, for leaders, the ends do indeed justify the means. Hypocritical, isn't it?
Again, truth be told, one man's terrorist is another man's patriot. )And I don't buy into the whole war on terror, but that discussion isn't for this thread.) The DE are essentially a rebel faction, so to speak. They wish to change the way the government is run. They see it as wrong. While you may disagree, they see muggleborns as a threat to their way of life, which, to a degree, they are. Muggle borns mean that purebloods have to change. They have to adapt to muggle society. Again, I will mention illegal immigration. The consensus on that of those against it is "I live here legally, I shouldn't have to change my lifestyle because you got in here unnoticed." Same sort of thing.
On the note of the Unforgivables: Because they're illegal? It is also illegal to make love potions, is that a Dark Art, would you say? Or is casting spells before the age of 17 evil?
On Snape killing people: You don't know if the people he killed were innocent. Also, I would again like to remind you that it was during WAR. War often leads to the deaths of innocents, and it is a part of war that cannot and will never be avoided. (Which is why I actually hate wars and am a pacifist.)
On Snape's teaching style: I've seen worse, actually. Teachers that are pushovers. Snape's teaching style may seem harsh, especially to Neville, but keep in mind, it does work for some people. And like Bianca said, it is much more suitable to college age students, I'm not sure exactly why he is teaching children. He never does anything that would necessarily be traumatizing for a well balanced human. (Neville, as we know, as a child, is more than a bit of a coward, he is never really brave until the 7th book). Humiliation is a good teacher. And honestly, a ot of teachers who aren't the love and giggles type, to some degree will bully and humiliate a student. With Snape, it is obvious, and that is why it is less likely to be traumatizing. (Examples of what Snape does in real life situations: A student being called to answer a math problem when the teacher knows they don't know the answer, having a student read out loud when it is known they have a hard time reading, things of that nature.) Also, an example of Snape humiliated Neville that seems most cruel is when Neville's potion explodes and he gets covered with it. While not dangerous, it is humiliating. Let's put that into a science lab and let's say that you got... bright pink chemicals on your shirt because you did not follow the directions properly. Now, would it be fair for the teacher to interrupt their class so you can go get a new shirt just because you didn't follow directions? NO!
On James saving Severus's life: I never said he was a bad person. I just said that he was an arrogant SOB and didn't care too much about the people he didn't like. Basically, he didn't like them, they were scum.
Overall: I voiced my opinion, I would appreciate it if you don't treat me like I'm an idiot for not agreeing with you. I don't think that James OR Snape were these "omg leik great persons", and it's true, we don't see how James changes, so perhaps if we did, my opinion might be different. However, we don't, so my opinion is as it stands. Snape seems to have more depth, like he is a real person. A hurt little child, almost, while James seems like the bully who gets what he wants. (Ironically, the bullies like James in Highschool (Jocks, etc.) are also popular and not always bad people aside from how they are in Highschool.)
@Bianca- Snape's teaching style, I, personally would love to emulate sometimes too. I mean, it's not like he ever actually lays a hand on any of his students. He just isn't afraid to tell them that they screwed up and it's their fault. I mean, because babying people barely works. (Though, I do believe it would have worked for Neville, because of who he is.)
Edit: About Bianca laughing at Snape's methods. I laugh as well, and even condone it sometimes, and I had many teachers who treated me that way. Including a racist, sexist teacher whom I could do nothing about because they would file a racism lawsuit against the school if I was so much as moved out of the class. I had to put up with sexual and racial harassment, and I must say, personal humiliation is better. Not to mention, you choose to feel humiliated.
Bery- I must say, thank you for the personal attacks
well arent you mr sensitive, your opinion was quite strong so you should've expected it
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I do not believe in good and evil because the world is more complex than that
i know there isnt just black and white but many shades of gray, but that shouldnt cloud your vision to wrong doings, or that way your gonna loose your own moral sense
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While killing someone is a horrible thing to do, it isn't always. Killing in self defense, for example, or killing in the midst of war
well of course i agree with that, since of course ootp members had to kill and i still like them, but as i pointed out earlier, it was the DE and voldy who started the war, so they are definitely the bad guys of the movie
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The DE are portrayed as evil because it is a CHILDREN'S BOOK. If it had instead been geared to adults the entire series, it would show that there is more to the sides, I believe. But for children, there is always good and evil.
ok then how about snape himself? he's not portrayed as totally evil but a very complex character and a very faulty one but one on the good side nonetheless
the DE are evil because they are extreme raicsts and mass murderers
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Keep in mind what I said earlier about whoever wins in the long run is the good guy
i so disagree with that, there are things that are simply never good, such as mass murders and terrorism
voldy was taking the whole control of the game by the end of DH and still most ppl oppossed him, because most ppl are all in all ok and prefer leaving in peace and in a community that accepts all ppl as equals
and i dont think stalin was a good guy either, his government brought many deaths and im against such forms of government, he was a dictator
and if you think hitler was evil then why dont you think voldy was evil? i see a lot of similarities in them and i think voldy sounds even worse
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Therefore, for leaders, the ends do indeed justify the means. Hypocritical, isn't it?
there are means that can never be justified in my opinion
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Again, truth be told, one man's terrorist is another man's patriot. )And I don't buy into the whole war on terror
wow, we should probably stop the discussion soon cause we cant possibly have more different opinions
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They wish to change the way the government is run. They see it as wrong. While you may disagree, they see muggleborns as a threat to their way of life, which, to a degree, they are. Muggle borns mean that purebloods have to change. They have to adapt to muggle society
and that is a good justification for mass murder is it? its racism, ever heard of the word? it can never be good no matter the circumstances
and whats up with inmigrants? do you hate them or something? you're really comparing the strong hate DE have for muggles and muggleborns to dislike of so much immigration? i dont think its a good comparison cause they are hardly similar at all
and look, if you may remember the unforgivables were taught in defense against the dark arts, so i can bet my life thats exactly what they are, which is why, oppossite to the things you mentioned, that it earns you a life time in azkaban
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on Snape's teaching style: I've seen worse, actually. Teachers that are pushovers
i cant imagine there being worse teachers or teaching styles than that in these times, if there are they should be fired immediately, i actually think snape would've been very well fired if he hadnt been so useful to dumble, cause he shows a very clear favouritism
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He never does anything that would necessarily be traumatizing for a well balanced human
he was neville's boggart for crying out loud! no matter how brave neville is (cause he's definitely so), snape was awful and traumatizing to him
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Humiliation is a good teacher. And honestly, a ot of teachers who aren't the love and giggles type, to some degree will bully and humiliate a student. With Snape, it is obvious, and that is why it is less likely to be traumatizing
yet again, i strongly disagree, humilliation is a very horrble way to teach someone so please never concieve
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On James saving Severus's life: I never said he was a bad person. I just said that he was an arrogant SOB and didn't care too much about the people he didn't like. Basically, he didn't like them, they were scum.
if he didnt care at all then why on earth did he saved his life? is he stupid or something? and SOB=bad person in my dictionary
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Overall: I voiced my opinion, I would appreciate it if you don't treat me like I'm an idiot for not agreeing with you
im not treating you like an idiot, but your ideas are awful and lacking moral sense in my opinion, so i cant help but disagree
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Snape seems to have more depth, like he is a real person. A hurt little child, almost, while James seems like the bully who gets what he wants. (Ironically, the bullies like James in Highschool (Jocks, etc.) are also popular and not always bad people aside from how they are in Highschool.)
about snape, he cant blame his mistakes just on his rough childhood, there's a point when ppl have to take responsability on themselves no matter how hard life was for them
i will give you that it makes him a bit less guilty than if he had been a spoiled kid raised by loving parents, but the stuff he did are still very wrong and he was awful to most ppl so i will never like him
and about james, thats exactly what happened, he made really bad choices and mistakes in his adolescence but im sure he grew out of it _________________
You are up there!
Again, I want to say that it's very immature to make personal attacks against me because our opinions differ. I have yet to make one against you. At most, I used sarcasm to get my point across. Obviously, I cannot be the only one who sees life in this way because honestly, if I was, then "evil" things would well, not be done. (And on the note of terrorism, keep in mind, the 'Patriots' of the American Revolution were considered terrorists to Britain.) I have a moral compass, thank you very much, but I am not under the impression that there is a certain right and wrong in life. Yes, the Death Eaters were racists and mass murderers and what they did was, at times, unacceptable, but we heard the story from the other side's point of view, not their's.
The Death Eaters, for all we know, could have seen themselves as having begun as a progressive radical movement and forced to resort to violence because there was no other option.
And, yes, we should end this discussion between the two of us because it is going nowhere and you are refusing to see any opinion but your own on the matter and are not even fully listening (aka reading) what I am saying (writing).
I simply said that I believe that Snape was the better person, and that I was unsure of who was better for Lily, but leaned towards Snape because I believed him to be, well, a better person. We do not know the full story behind James' life or if he changed at all, so I am forced to go off of what we have seen of him. A bully, and later, a soldier.
(To anyone who plays D&D, I'm Chaotic Neutral with evil tendencies. lol.)
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) assessment that he was misguided. Were he truly a "bad" person he wouldn't have gotten out of the DE no matter who Voldemort tried to hurt. And I think his age definitely DID have something to do with him making the decision he did (to join Voldemort). He was what, 21, when Lily and James were killed? I've been that age; I currently teach people who are that age. You're technically an adult but you aren't always making adult decisions. Snape was young, proud to a fault (that guy really couldn't tolerate indignity at all), and he hadn't had a very decent life - all that taken into account would make him an easy recruit for someone like Voldemort. He's certainly far from a model human being, the man is no saint by a long shot. But I also don't think he can't be dismissed as just a bad person.
Oh wow, no - not the best teaching style in the world but boy are there days when I'd love to emulate him, haha. I don't think Snape is someone who should be teaching young children. He could probably get away with his style were he teaching college age students, but you just can't act that way towards young kids.