Just been thinking about the fidelius charm and its role in DH, Early in the book, Arthur weasley states that the fidelius charm had been diluted due to DD's death and there were around 20 secret keepers. those who had not been told by DD himself couldn't find grimmauld place.
Later when Harry and Hermione go to godrics hollow, why can Harry see his parents house, when 1, Wormtail is still alive(at the time) , 2. Wormtail never told Harry its location, 3. Lily and james' death apparently broke the spell, but why didnt DD's death break the spell to Grimmauld place?,
Isn't it a bit weird how the it differs or is this a general mistake?
if this has been posted before, i apologize as i couldnt be bothered looking through 31 pages of topics _________________ Member #3 of the "David Yates has no direction for the Potter films and should therefore be stoned" club!
Wow..! umm... i never really thought of it like that but JK amitted that she did make some mistakes when writing....But who could blame her she was bound to make and error sometime
When the owner of the "secret" dies, the spell breaks. When the secret keeper dies, the spell is diluted to all those who knew the "secret".
Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the Order of the Phoenix. So when he died, the spell was diluted. Had all members of the Order died, the spell would have been broken.
Wormtail was the secret keeper for James and Lily Potter. Had he died, the spell would have been diluted to anyone who knew the "secret" (James, Lily, Harry and Voldemort). However the "owners" of the "secret" died, so the spell was broken completely.
Hope that was clear enough. _________________ "I can make things move without touching them. I can make bad things happen to people who are mean to me." -- Tom Riddle (HBP movie).
When the owner of the "secret" dies, the spell breaks. When the secret keeper dies, the spell is diluted to all those who knew the "secret".
Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the Order of the Phoenix. So when he died, the spell was diluted. Had all members of the Order died, the spell would have been broken.
Wormtail was the secret keeper for James and Lily Potter. Had he died, the spell would have been diluted to anyone who knew the "secret" (James, Lily, Harry and Voldemort). However the "owners" of the "secret" died, so the spell was broken completely.
Hope that was clear enough.
makes sense in a way, what i was trying to get at thet the persons, sorry the person who the charm was set up for is still alive therefore the spell shouldn't have broken, the way i think about it is, Lily and James didn't go into hiding for their own protection it was because of the prophecy and that Harry needed protecting. so really the only secret was Harry. James and lily came into it as they had to look after their son. _________________ Member #3 of the "David Yates has no direction for the Potter films and should therefore be stoned" club!
^ Well, when a person dies, whatever spells he had in place get lifted. We see this happen when DD dies. The body binding curse that he had placed on Harry minutes before lifted, and Harry knew that was because he was dead.
The way I see it, the fidelius charm is a charm that needs at lest two wizards to cast, but may use more. That way if one of the people who helped cast it dies, then it is diluted, but not lifted. In this case, all of those involved in casting the spell (James, Lily, and Peter) were dead; therefore, it was completely lifted. Harry had no part in the actual casting of the spell since he was a baby. The spell protected the house that Harry was in, but it otherwise had nothing to do with him. _________________
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Result of F.A.Q. Poll
(SPOILER WARNING)
What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.
Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is
"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
^ I thought she changed the rule of the fidelius charm, though.
Edit: She did change it. I remember talking about this in another thread. When the secret-keeper dies, apparently every one who knew the secret becomes a secret-keeper. IT is diluted until it is no longer a secret.
Now it makes no sense that Harry and Hermione could see the house in Godric's Hollow.
^ I thought she changed the rule of the fidelius charm, though.
Edit: She did change it. I remember talking about this in another thread. When the secret-keeper dies, apparently every one who knew the secret becomes a secret-keeper. IT is diluted until it is no longer a secret.
Now it makes no sense that Harry and Hermione could see the house in Godric's Hollow.
^ I thought she changed the rule of the fidelius charm, though.
Edit: She did change it. I remember talking about this in another thread. When the secret-keeper dies, apparently every one who knew the secret becomes a secret-keeper. IT is diluted until it is no longer a secret.
Now it makes no sense that Harry and Hermione could see the house in Godric's Hollow.
I'm not sure where the change is... I think it was only elaborated on in Deathly Hallows, but not changed.
No, it is distinctly different from what she used to say about the fidelius charm:
Quote:
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.
According to that, no one else can ever pass the secret on. _________________
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No, it is distinctly different from what she used to say about the fidelius charm:
Quote:
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.
According to that, no one else can ever pass the secret on.
Ooooh, I thought you meant that it said on the page what the change was... now I see.
I guess when the house blew up, the rule changed. What was the thing that JKR admitted she had changed? Was this the rule? _________________ ^made by Fiendfyre
No, it is distinctly different from what she used to say about the fidelius charm:
Quote:
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.
According to that, no one else can ever pass the secret on.
Ooooh, I thought you meant that it said on the page what the change was... now I see.
I guess when the house blew up, the rule changed. What was the thing that JKR admitted she had changed? Was this the rule?
I don't know if she openly said it was changed or even if she has realized to this day that the new explanation contradicts the old one. I just remember that it was discussed in another thread, and every ou were involved in the conversation. I just know that it was sort of a rule that got changed over the course of time. I'll see if I can find the thread.
I can't find it anywhere, but I know for a fact that it exists somewhere! _________________
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Every Fidelius charm has a secret-keeper and a subject (henceforth known as "the secret"). The secret of Grimmauld place is "Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix" (as is stated on the note Moody shows Harry). The secret of the Potter home was "the home of James and Lily Potter" (apparently, having nothing to to with Harry, since there was no need to have him included in the charm).
There are two possible ways for the charm to change: 1. The secret keeper dies, and as a result, all those who knew the secret (but until now - were unable to divulge it) become secret-keepers. 2. The subject (secret) dies, causing the charm to be broken completely.
When Dumbledore died, it was the first way; the charm was diluted. When James and Lily died and the house was destroyed, it was the second way; the charm broke completely and anyone could see the house (since there is nothing left to protect).
Had Wormtail died before they came, it wouldn't have changed anything, since if the charm had still been intact, his death would just have caused Voldemort to become the (only) secret-keeper.
The above is the only possible way to explain the fact that Harry and Hermione could see the house. _________________ "I can make things move without touching them. I can make bad things happen to people who are mean to me." -- Tom Riddle (HBP movie).
But why wouldn't the charm include Harry? Wasn't Voldemort after him? Or do you mean the charm was over the house and not the inhabitants? _________________ ^made by Fiendfyre
But why wouldn't the charm include Harry? Wasn't Voldemort after him? Or do you mean the charm was over the house and not the inhabitants?
The charm was over the house of Lily and James Potter. Since they were the ones mentioned in the secret, then their deaths would cause the end of the secret. Any one kept within the house would be kept safe, though. They had no reason to take Harry from the house, and they probably figured that both of them wouldn't be out of the house long enough to be killed. _________________
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What was the thing that JKR admitted she had changed? Was this the rule?