Quick note(s) Mods, I looked for a thread such as this and did not find one. Also, I am NOT claiming ownership of this theory, I merely felt that other forums deserved to know of it.
Originally posted on cos forums by the user Paintball
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I have totally and completely accepted DIATSSISE. I have no doubt in my mind that Dumbledore was impersonating Snape during chapter 2 of HBP. I can now view HBP no other way. .
I will try now to give you the history of the DIATSSISE theory including why and how it came into existence, and why I have totally accepted DIATSSISE as the answer to the puzzle left by JKR when she left so many confusing and conflicting facts up in the air at the end of HBP.: The theme of the theory is that Dumbledore was impersonating Snape in Spinner’s end (chapter 2) and therefore took the vow
The Puzzle:
(1) I believe Snape is trustworthy. There are too many inconsistencies in an untrustworthy Snape.
Dumbledore knew Draco was trying to kill him. The conversation that Draco had with Dumbledore on the tower leaves no doubt in my mind that Dumbledore knew that Draco was trying to kill him all year. It is possible I guess that Dumbledore could have gotten this information from someone other then Snape, but this information most likely came from Snape. A Voldemort loyal Snape would never alert Dumbledore to the plan to kill Dumbledore.
Dumbledore knew about the vow. He make it very clear in his office when Harry reported overhearing Snape and Draco’s conversation in the bathroom before Christmas that Dumbledore knew more about the situation then Harry. It makes absolutely no sense for a Voldemort loyal Snape who has taken a vow to kill Dumbledore if Draco should fail to tell his intended victim of the vow to kill him.
The lucky portion allowed Flickwick to warn Snape. I know the potion protected Ginny and Ron from being harmed, but there was no fighting going on outside Snape’s office. Snape would not have known that he was needed on the tower except for Flickwick alerting him of the situation. Hermione who had taken the potion allowed Flickwick to go right past her and Luna and alert Snape. It has to be concluded that it was lucky for Hermione for Snape to have been alerted to his needed presence on the tower.
Dumbledore was adamant in his trust of Snape. If Dumbledore was wrong about this then Draco would be right, and Dumbledore would be just an old fool.
(2) At first glance a Trustworthy Snape’s Avada Kedavra on the tower makes no sense. I must have read 100s of post and theories and I rejected all of them. On some of the theories I agreed with the trustworthy Snape posters and on some of the theories I agreed with the evil Snape posters. The theory that Dumbledore was dying from the hand so a plan was developed between Snape and Dumbledore at first interested me. The Snape is evil posters convinced me this theory was wrong. The big piece of canon that was hard to contradict was Dumbledore’s statement to Harry that the loss of the hand was a small price to pay for the destruction of 1/7 of Voldemort’s soul. They convinced me this theory was wrong, but not that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape. The next theory I considered was the potion in the cave being poison theory. I couldn’t see any possibility or any time for Snape and Dumbledore to formulate a plan after Dumbledore drank the potion. Harry was with Dumbledore this entire time. The way Snape rushed from his office to the tower showed a person following a direct plan of action. He had a mission to complete and he knew what needed to be done. The poisoned potion is just too unrealistic for me. If it was poison then it could have been cured, maybe by just shoving a bezoar in his mouth. “Accio bezoar”, and the problem is solved. So how about the Dumbledore is alive theory? As much as I would like this to be true, I just couldn’t get around the vow or the portrait. How could a trustworthy Snape not kill Dumbledore, but not die from the vow. Maybe there is a loophole in the vow. Too fake. The answer is very simple. Who is dead at the end of HBP. Not Snape, but Dumbledore. Who therefore took the vow. Not Snape, but Dumbledore..
(3) This theory was posted and it lasted into Volume 3 before it was closed. I was given the opportunity to explain this theory in one last post. I am going to miss this thread because finding all the clues which prove to me the accuracy of DIATSSISE has been a lot of fun. The exposure of this answer to new posters will most likely be missed and with it moving off the front page of the History of Magic Thread where it remained for a long time it will soon be forgotten.
The clues:
(1) The first question that has to be answered for this theory to make sense is: Why would Dumbledore be at Spinner’s End impersonating Snape? Dumbledore told Harry that he has been trying for years to obtain information from anyone who has ever been around Voldemort. Wormtail has been around Voldemort since the end of POA. Wormtail would be on the top of this list and we know Wormtail was at Spinner’s End. Canon shows that Harry never told his dream in GOF to Dumbledore. Dumbledore concluded that “Voldemort used Nagani to kill an old Muggleman and it might have then occurred to him to turn her into his final Horcrux..” Most likely this information came from Wormtail. So we know that Dumbledore has suddenly acquired this information and the most likely source is Wormtail. Maybe Snape got this information, from Wormtail instead of Dumbledore? No way, there is more, a lot more.
(2) Snape offered drinks to the sisters. JKR turns the offering of drinks to guest into a big scene just one chapter later. Dumbledore even offered drinks to Voldemort when he visited him asking for a job. To Dumbledore this is good manners. Snape has never offered a drink to a single person in the previous 5 books or any other time in HBP.
(3) Snape is polite to sisters. Snape acted differently then we have ever seen him act. The very first thing that comes to mind when Chapter 2 is read is how polite Snape is acting. Some crazy threads have started because of this difference in Snape’s actions including a Snape loves Narcissa thread. Before the Dev. Of Snape’s Character Thread was closed, the trustworthy Snape believers were having a blast re-developing Snape’s character without the Harry filter as they called it. Harry didn’t make Snape do or say the cruel things he said and did for 5 prior books. No. Snape acted different for one simple reason. It wasn’t Snape in Spinner’s End, it was Dumbledore. There’s more.
(4) Some of the words used by Snape in Spinner’s End are Dumbledore words including “of course”, “fiasco”, and the big one “forgive me”. Here is the post concerning the “fiasco” clue. Here is the post concerning the –forgive me- clue. There is no way Snape would apologize for an insult while he is giving it. Look at all the Snape insults he has thrown out in all 6 books. Never did he include an apology for the insult in the insult. Dumbledore on the other hand included in his insult to Voldemort an apology for the insult in the exact same manner and using the exact same words as well as all the other times he used the exact same words in the exact same way throughout HBP. The inclusion in the insult of an apology for the insult in the exact way Dumbledore had done many times before is considered by me of being an obvious clue and caused me and many others to become convinced the theory was 100% accurate. It is obvious to me that JKR had Dumbledore use the –forgive me- phrase throughout HBP as a direct clue to the one use of –forgive me- in Spinner’s End. As far as I’m concerned this clue is so strong that JKR might have well just posted on her web site that it was Dumbledore in Spinner’s End. I can recognize a direct, obvious clue when I see one.
(5) The theory explains the argument overheard by Hagrid between Dumbledore and Snape. In the forest Snape tells Dumbledore he is taking too much for granted,. and that maybe he (Snape) didn’t want to do it anymore. The trustworthy Snape believers argue that this shows that a plan had been formed for Snape to kill Dumbledore and Snape didn’t want to do so. The evil Snape believers laugh at this argument because looking at this conversation in that light is ridiculous. Snape didn’t want to do what anymore, live. If Snape took the vow, but didn’t kill Dumbledore then he dies. There is no way this conversation can in any way be made to reconcile with a Severus Snape wanting to do the noble thing and die from the vow and Dumbledore ordering Snape to harm his soul and commit murder. No Way. This conversation makes total sense under DIATSSISE because Snape has no reason of self preservation to do anything.. He has total freedom of choice with no ramification of the vow hanging over his head.
Dumbledore has formed a plan. When the time comes they are to talk Draco into letting them fake Draco and his mother’s death. Snape will then fake Dumbledore’s death and go into deep cover. Dumbledore will then die from the vow. Snape was tied of being a spy and didn’t want to leave the safety and comforts of Hogwarts for the dangerous job of deep cover spy. Dumbledore took too much for granted on what Snape wanted to do for the cause. He certainly didn’t want to frame himself for Dumbledore’s murder.
(6) The theory explains Dumbledore’s comment on the tower to Draco “Of course he would tell you that Draco, but . . .” If Snape had taken the vow then when confronted by Draco’s statement that Snape had promised his mother to look after him, Dumbledore would have said instead “I’m aware of that Draco, but. . .” This is a big argument by the Snape is evil believers that Snape had not told Dumbledore of the vow, but had lied to Dumbledore and only told Dumbledore that he had told this to Draco to get his trust. That doesn’t make sense. Draco would surely have checked over Christmas break with his mother and Dumbledore would know this. DIATSSISE explains this statement very well. “Of course he would tell you that Draco, but it was really I who took the vow.”
(7) It appears Dumbledore can speak Parseltongue and would want to review conversations between babymort, Voldemort, and Nagani. In the memories in the pensieve there are instances where Parseltongue is spoken. Dumbledore does not ask Harry to translate these conversations, yet it is obvious he knows what is included in these conversations. It appears that Dumbledore can understand Parseltongue. There has to be 1000’s of conversations between Nagani and Voldemort in Wormtail’s presence during the 2 years Wormtail was with Voldemort. Dumbledore explained to Harry how he acquired Morfin’s memory that they viewed. He used legitimacy to scan the memories and then with great difficulty removed the memory for review. It wasn’t until this review that he knew what it contained. Snape can’t understand parseltongue and if it was difficult for Dumbledore to locate and remove Morfin’s important memory, Snape is probably incapable of doing so. If Dumbledore hasn’t confided in Snape about his search for the Horcruxes, then Snape would even know what he is looking for clue to. Dumbledore has to be the one to scan Wormtail’s memories, remove them, and then review them.
( Dumbledore’s line about researching his own jam preference if impersonating himself. JKR has Dumbledore use this statement to Harry just a few chapters over. It is made clear that Dumbledore would prepare himself very completely before undertaking any impersonation including researching something as minor as his own jam preference. All the questions asked by Bella are the type of questions that Dumbledore would expect to have to answer if he is interrupted by a death eater while he is at Snape’s house extracting information from Wormtail.
(9) Dumbledore had a reason to try and act like Snape, but Snape would have no reason to try and act like Dumbledore. Some of the things said in Chapter 2 look like something Snape might say. This is true, but there are a lot more Dumbledore like statements in Spinner’s End. If Dumbledore was impersonating Snape in Spinner’s End he has every reason in the world to try and act like and sound like Snape, but if it was Snape in Spinner’s End he would have absolutely no reason to try and sound or act like Dumbledore.
(10) Snape didn’t use the Muffliato Spell on Wormtail. JKR had Snape invent the Muffliato Spell. This is a new spell she made up for HBP and she had Harry use it many times during HBP so we would know how it works. The spell makes a conversation where it can only be heard by the people involved in the conversation. It would have been the perfect spell for Snape to use when Wormtail was trying to listen in to the conversation with the sisters. I see the fact that JKR had Snape invent this spell but not use it when it would have been the perfect spell to use as an intentional clue by JKR to her readers that it was not Snape in Spinner’s End.
(11) The lack of the usual adjectives to describe Snape’s characteristics like curled lip, coldly, etc. Phrases used in Spinner’s end were “replied calmly”, bored, lazily, flatly, etc. which showed a lack of the usual Snape emotions..
(12) Bella’s double take when Snape said he would explain himself. When Snape told Bella he would explain himself, he remarked “Oh yes Bella, I’m going to answer your questions,” JKR made it very clear that Snape was acting totally out of character. He had gone over a year after Voldemort’s return and he hadn’t yet answered these questions to any death eater. If he had, Bella would have already known the answers. It is out of character for Snape to explain himself to her or. anyone.
(13) The only person Snape needed to prove his loyalty to was Voldemort, not the sisters. It makes no sense for Snape to explain himself to anyone but Voldemort. Snape had already convinced Voldemort that he was loyal. When walking up to the house Narcissa tells Bella that Voldemort trust Snape. That is all that matters. Snape would never give Bella the satisfaction of believing that Snape felt it was necessary to explain himself to her. Snape would never explain himself to anyone but Voldemort or Dumbledore.
(14) The simple fact that the scene was included early in the book should cause us to realize that the chapter is not what it seems. JKR never lets us know what is coming before Harry finds out. We find out the truth the same time Harry does. If JKR shows us something early in the book we are always given the wrong impression about what we know. There is no way that JKR would have shown us Snape taking a vow to fulfill Draco’s mission at the start of HBP unless this was misdirection.
(15) The Strange behavior of the Avada Kedavra on the tower is a big claim by the alivers. They very accurately point out how Dumbledore was slouching against the ramparts when Snape hit him in the chest with the Avada Kedavra. Dumbledore was lifted up into the air and pushed backwards slowly over the ramparts. When he was next viewed on the ground his eyes were closed.. JKR has been consistent with all prior uses of the Avada Kedavra. The person always just dropped dead on the spot with no blasting upward or backward and they died with their eyes open. The alivers argue this consistent pattern of the Avada Kedavra for the proposition that the Avada Kedavra was a fake and Snape used a non-verbal spell to move Dumbledore up and off the tower to the ground. This is a good theory, but if Snape took the vow then Snape would be dead from the vow if he didn’t kill Dumbledore and there is the portrait in the headmaster’s office. This is easily understood when you accept DIATSSISE. Snape faked the Avada Kedavra and lowered Dumbledore to the ground with a non-verbal spell where Dumbledore then died from the vow. Snape is totally innocent of any responsibility for Dumbledore’s death.
(16) When Snape answered the door, JKR described him by his physical description. She did not call him by name until he was called Severus by Narcissa and Snape by Bella. If she had told the readers that Snape had answered the door, she would have been lying to her readers. Since it was Dumbledore in Spinner’s End she was forced to introduce Snape to us in this manner. After he was called Snape by the sisters, she was free to call him Snape thereafter without lying to her readers. She did the same thing with fake Moody in GOF.
(17) When JKR was describing Snape she gave a description of Snape’s hair including how it was parted. She did not include “greasy” when she described this hair. The very first adjectives used to describe Snape in SS/PS when Harry first laid eyes on him were “greasy black hair.” Every time that JKR has described Snape’s hair she has included “greasy’ in its description. This is a clear clue that it wasn’t Snape in Spinner’s End.
The Answer:
When JKR ended HBP, she left us a puzzle. The pieces of the puzzle were clearly defined, but the solution wasn’t obvious. The pieces don’t appear to reconcile or fit together. People have tried to reshape the pieces to make them fit, The alivers argue a loophole in the vow and that when JKR said the portraits were of dead headmaster’s, Dumbledore’s picture wasn’t yet hung. The planned death believers have had to come up with unsupported claims that Dumbledore was dying anyway so Dumbledore wasn’t really asking Snape to damage his soul by committing murder. The Snape is evil believers have to claim that the obvious canon evidence that Dumbledore knew of Draco’s plan and the vow are wrong. By simply accepting the obvious that Snape didn’t act like Snape in Spinner’s End because it wasn’t really him, all the pieces of the puzzle fit perfect and almost magically come together to form the absolute perfect answer to the puzzle. It is very, very unlikely that there could be this many clues (especially the –forgive me- clue) that point to a perfect solution to the puzzle that is really the wrong answer.
One poster described DIATSSISE as being similar to those 3D pictures that were popular a few years back. All you can see at first is the front picture, but if you look at it a different way, a totally different picture emerges. After you finally see the second picture, you wonder why you didn’t see it sooner. Once you see the beauty of DIATSSISE and re-read HBP under this theory, you will view HBP in a totally different perspective. Your expectations on what you are expecting for book 7 will change. You will also find out that there are very few discussions going on in these forums that you wish to join in because you already know the answer, but to discuss your answer people would have to accept DIATSSISE.
Paintball
For purposes of this thread, lets assume this theory is accurate. How does this theory change your view of the events in HBP? Does it at all? Does it change your opinion of Severus? Of Dumbledore? What are you now looking for in book 7? Are any of your questions answered?? Are there any noticable holes in this theory?
I would personally be disappointed if this theory isnt at least partly right.
Wow, this is a good theorie!!!
It would explain a lot if it's true, especially about Snape.
Well, I wish I were the original writer so that I could thank you! I've been doing so much defending of this theory over 3 different forums... its crazy. Yes, I would be surprised if this isnt at least partly true.
Wow....Stuff like this makes me question everything!
I agree! I'm almost convinced. I am now looking forward to rereading HBP.(I've only read it twice) I so hate that Dumbledore is gone that I keep puting off a reread. I thought He would have taught Harry a lot of speacial DADA to prepare him for killing Voldi _________________
DOC W
MALE
This is a really, really good theory.
In fact, I am going to adopt it.
I've always thought Snape was innocent, but that is even better.
Woah. I'm like.. flabbergasted. _________________
Snape is with the Dark Lord.
Snape is a Death eater
Snape killed Dumbledore
plain and simple _________________
lozinja wrote:
first time i heard it i kinda laughed.
second time i was like o crap this is gonna be a hit, i'm going to hear it waaay too much and get so sick of it.
third time i turned the radio off.
I have now been banned from COS and am searching the forums for a new home. I have been spending all my time on COS and didn't even know my DIATSSISE theory was being cirulated around the different forums. Since the forgive me clue was the clue that convienced me of the accuracy of DIATSSISE I thought my first contribution to this thread on this forum would be to restate this clue:
The -forgive me clue-
The use of the phrase forgive me midsentence is a character trait unique only to Dumbledore and no other character ever created for Potterverse or any other works. Consider the trait of a character that would apologize for an insult in the insult itself. Dumbledore is the only character in Potter verse with this trait. All call this trait politeness to the extreme. Snape does not have this trait so to me JKR would not have included the -forgive me- in Spinner's End if she was writing Snape's character.
Here is Snapledore in Spinner's end:
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And-forgive me-you speak of dangers . . . you were facing six teenagers, were you not? HBP pg 29
Here is Dumbledore:
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Of others, you remain . . . forgive me . . . woefully ignorant. HBP pg 444
Here is Dumbledore again:
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In fact, being –forgive me- rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.”HBP pg 197
Here is Dumbledore again:
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Had it not been –forgive me the lack of of seemly modesty- for my own prodigious skill. . . .HBP pg 503
And Dumbledore again:
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Yet . . . forgive me. . . where are they now. You seem unsupported. HBP pg 585
And Dumbledore yet again:
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Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me –forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it HBP pg 592
I'd have to disagree with this theory. I just can't see it. If DD was impersonating Snape, then that would mean he made the Unbreakable Vow...to kill himself? I just don't see it happening. _________________
I'd have to disagree with this theory. I just can't see it. If DD was impersonating Snape, then that would mean he made the Unbreakable Vow...to kill himself? I just don't see it happening.
No problem. We all must accept the theories that to each of us makes the most sense. After re-reading HBP with this theory in mind, all the questions I had about Snape's loyalities and Dumbledore's death made sense to me. Since under this theory Dumbledore took the vow, Dumbledore was dead by the end of that school year one way or the other: Draco kills him, He kills himself, or he dies from the vow.
Since this forum moves so slowly, I don't think I will need to check it that often. I'm kind of in the habit of checking in once per day which I will probably continue to do.
I really hate you. There's always someone like you. For book five it was myslef. I figured out the whole thing and spoilt it for myslef. Now I had my own little theories about HBP and I was Happy with them, even though they had loopholes BUT YOU... You evil person... You have just now provided me with the theory that makes most sense and the theory that I think will probably prove to be the truth. YET ANOTHER BOOK RUINED.
JUST KIDDING.
This is a awsome theory. I think I believe this now. It makes perfect sense. I did thought that Snape was acting Odd but I really thought that this was Snape with out Harr's Perspectives. Now I know.
Thanks for the clue _________________ Remember, Remember, the 5th of November
"Forgive me" Paint ball, but what exactly do you mean by DIATSSISE theory? Does it stand for something or am I completley missing something?
I do see your point about Dumbledore impersonating Snape. I'm planning a re-read of HBP and will keep your theory in mind. _________________ You're just jealous cause the voices only talk to me!
Surely such potent magic as this would not allow for someone to take the vow, if the person was not really the claimed person. _________________ Dan Buske
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Dumbledore’s line about researching his own jam preference if impersonating himself. JKR has Dumbledore use this statement to Harry just a few chapters over. It is made clear that Dumbledore would prepare himself very completely before undertaking any impersonation including researching something as minor as his own jam preference. All the questions asked by Bella are the type of questions that Dumbledore would expect to have to answer if he is interrupted by a death eater while he is at Snape’s house extracting information from Wormtail.
