halfbloodprincess:
i think that you should keep those opinions to yourself because you never know who might react violently to that.
NICK:
Well, I believe in free speech. I must say [type] that it does saden me see that it seems you do not. If people didn't talk to each other, then you'd never understand why people have different beliefs then you do. If you don't understand other people's perspective, how can you ever hope to live in harmony with them? A society. (I dont' know where you are from) like America has different cultures and different ideologies. I know that the majority of America claims to be Christian, but that does not automatically mean we should silence the minority. But if you see it that way then I won't express my opinions to you anymore.
Quote:
halfbloodprincess:
never say that a person is mistaken because of his/her belief.
NICK:
Why not? Is it not possible that you are wrong just like it's possible that I am wrong? You won't even entertain the possibility?
Quote:
halfbloodprincess:
theres nothing wrong with being an atheist. if you dont believe in a god, that is your choice. but if we choose to believe in one, its our choice as well. You can always assert that there is nothing wrong with being an athiest without having to attack the Faiths of other people.
NICK:
Correct. However would you argue that it's OKAY for someone to believe irrational things? I'm afraid you'd need to fight in a few wars and have people try to blow you up because you don't believe in Allah, and you are an infidel and deserve to be killed. Once you've been exposed to such things (forgive me for assuming that you have not) then probably, you may have a more open minded approach to at least discussing religion so instead of killing each other, we can talk about it.
Cheers,
Nick _________________ "People are stupid; given the proper motivation almost anyone will believe almost anything"
-WFR
Vasaver:
Well Nick I think you have every right to defend your friend. It was out of line for what T3st1fy was saying. Just because you friend or even you might not believe in god doesnt mean you are a bad person with no moral at all. Actually I think it is healthy to go in what you believe in even if it isnt main stream. Your friends values on matters should be heard, because if they werent on matters we wouldnt get another picture.
NICK:
Hello Vasaver.
Thank you and I agree with most of what you have said so far...however...
Quote:
Vasaver:
Plus, I am sure that everyone has sinned in one form. Minor but we most likely have, and I bet you or your friend havent sinned anymore than we have so there is no reason for you or your friend to be looked down from.
NICK:
I agree that it is possible that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of god (Romans 3:23)", however; such a statement presupposes the existence of the Christian god, the accuracy of the Christian faith, and then inerrancy of the bible. I'm afraid I've concluded that probably, your god is imaginary. Of course I understand that you disagree with me and maintain the belief that your god is real; so let's just agree to disagree until people know me well enough to not get mad when I start threads about religion.
In any case, thank's for your support.
Cheers,
Nick _________________ "People are stupid; given the proper motivation almost anyone will believe almost anything"
-WFR
I'm not going to take place in this heated discussion because of previous political and religious talks with friends that stopped being friends. _________________ Still here, and still a Lupin Fanatic.
"Always bring a banana to a party. Bananas are good." - 10th Doctor
Lupin-Fanatic:
I'm not going to take place in this heated discussion because of previous political and religious talks with friends that stopped being friends.
NICK:
"Heated"? This? I don't know about that. Perhaps Real™ friends would unerstand that everyone is not going to agree on everything. I've been called a "rabid atheist" by some people. Yet I have plenty of Christian and Islamic friends. I avoid hasty generalizations and instead try to treat people as individuals.
In any case; arguing is FUN!! It's not about who "wins" (it's very difficult to get someone to change their convictions about "sensitive" topics, but it happens), but about who can present more evidence, and use a logical approach. But that's just my opinion, I suppose.
Cheers,
Nick _________________ "People are stupid; given the proper motivation almost anyone will believe almost anything"
-WFR
lnknprkfn:
You've got a good point there dude... But The Bible is worded in such a way that ti can be viewed in many different ways. This literiture was so loosely translated that it can be taken in soo many different ways... ya know?
NICK:
Well, it's true that the bible has been interpolated and rewritten quite a few times. in fact the oldest hard copy of a book of the bible is a fragment of the book of Isaiah.
In anycase, Unfortunately, the bible makes extraordinary claims about the nature of the universe and the nature of its supposed deity. You see, When Paul was writing to Timothy, he said this
Quote:
PAUL:
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 1 Timothy 3:16
NICK:
Supposedly, an all loving, all powerful, all knowing god inspired all scripture. I understand that people make mistakes, however, the obvious contradictions can be avoided by simply reading preceeding text.
In any case, most of it is academic, but what it mostly boils down to is
1) probably, An all loving god would want people to understand his or her word
2) An all knowing god would know how to do it using faliable humans
3) An all powerful god would have enough power to make it so
4) There are people who do not understand the bible [the alleged word of god] after much reflection
5) the Bible has historical, scientific, and logical errors
6) The bible describes the Christian god as all loving, all powerful, and all knowing
therefore probably
7) The god described in the bible cannot exist.
That is a cognitive, inductive argument. I understand if you don't find it convincing. But for what it's worth, I was a Christian for the better part of 20 years and my subsequient study of philosophy, science, and logical reasoning has changed my mind. But hey, that's just me.
Cheers,
Nick
Well nick, you bring up a lot of intresting points... The bible dose have a lot of flaws and stuff in it.. And this is because of sooo many people changing it and stuff.
You need to remember that for the better part of a fe centries, that the most normal people couldnt read... Therefore where told whatever the paster or priest at that time wanted them to hear. And when the bible when translated and such was probably monipulated and everything else. So there are going to be alot of errors and such... _________________
lnknprkfn:
Well nick, you bring up a lot of intresting points... The bible do[es] have a lot of flaws and stuff in it.. And this is because of sooo many people changing it and stuff.
NICK:
Yes, people do make mistakes. There's an old saying that goes "An error only becomes a mistake when you refuse to correct it." So I am not quite sure how this gets your god off the hook.
Quote:
lnknprkfn:
You need to remember that for the better part of a fe[w] centries, that the most normal people couldn[']t read... Therefore [we're] told whatever the paster or priest at that time wanted them to hear. And when the bible when translated and such was probably m[a]nipulated and everything else. So there are going to be alot of errors and such...
NICK:
Yes. But if you were all knowing, would you not know of a way to have your word conveyed in a non-contradictory, unambiguous, clear and concise manner? I know I would not only be able to do such a thing, but if I were also all loving I would want it perfect. If I were all powerful, then I would make it so. But I suppose that's why "he" is god and I am not yes?
As to the literacy; it is correct that the average phesant would not be able to read. However, it was not phesants who wrote the bible (or at least it was not illiterate people). They have no excuse. As I have said before; I did not wake up one morning and think to myself "You know what? God must be imaginary"; it took about 2 years for me to see that some of my most cherished beliefs and my strongest convictions were built upon a sand castle.
Cheers,
Nick _________________ "People are stupid; given the proper motivation almost anyone will believe almost anything"
-WFR
Last edited by nickcopernicus on June 21, 2007 5:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Nick, You are right that logically there is no proof of a lot of things that the bible says... But there is that little thing called faith.. you know? I just beleve in god. I dont believe in any spusific religionor anything... I just believe in God and jesus. And Keb, I support your desision to be an atheist. I just came in here because I like logical debaits. _________________
yes i have questions about my own faith. but faith isnt a right or wrong thing. its just simply what you believe in. that is why it is called faith, not knowledge. you can question one's knowledge. but not beliefs.
and about freedom of speech, no i am open to that. just make sure that you know when to just keep your opnions to yourself and when you can talk. freedom of speech about views on capitalism, death penalty, abortion, yeah they are fine. but you dont have to tell people that their beliefs are wrong, because you could be hurting them. _________________
lnknprkfn:
Nick, You are right that logically there is no proof of a lot of things that the bible says... But there is that little thing called faith.. you know? I just [believe] in god. I [don’t] believe in any [specific] religion or anything... I just believe in God and [J]esus. And Keb, I support your [decision] to be an atheist. I just came in here because I like logical [debates].
NICK:
Au contraire my patient potter participant. There are a lot of things in the bible that we can logically, historically, and or scientifically verify or falsify.
In the book of Genesis, the location of the Garden of Eden is described. It tells us of 4 rivers
1) Tigris (east of Assyria)
2) Euphrates
3) Pishon (around the land of Havilah, where there is gold)
4) Gihon (around the land of cush)
1) and 2) exist, while 3) and 4) are pure fiction. Allegedly, the four were supposed to meet. If there were a garden of Eden, we would be able to see where it allegedly "was".... of course it allegedly was destroyed an alleged "great flood. However, there is no evidence for such a flood. I will say however, that many (in my opinion) desperate scholars and archeologists who try to harmonize and or identify 3) and 4), but they are nowhere near the Tigris and the Euphrates. I know because I saw the Tigris and Euphrates a few months ago... from the Air.
As to faith, Atheists like me call it belief without evidence, but to be fair, If I were a Christian Scholar, then I'd tell you to look up the ancient Greek word for faith. It's "pistis" See what it means here.
I think that we all have to use faith to some degree. But the belief that the creator of a universe over 26 billion light years across cares about you and wants to spend time with you seems a little different then "having faith in yourself.
In any case, I support your position as a Christian and if it works for you then that's great. And I've mostly maintained a "live and let live" view of religion. Unfortunately, we don't have peace in the middle east. I've went through some "unpleasant" experiences because of some Muslims believing things on faith. Namely, that their god wants them to be a suicide bomber and kill innocent people. Of course, there are many Muslims who disagree with such things, and I laud them as well.
Quote:
halfbloodprincess:
yes i have questions about my own faith. but faith [isn’t] a right or wrong thing. its just simply what you believe in. that is why it is called faith, not knowledge. you can question one's knowledge. but not beliefs.
NICK:
I'm like radio shack. If you have questions, I have answers. Believe it or not I know the bible and the Christian faith pretty well. I won't even TRY to make you "loose your faith" or whatever. Did you have any particular question?
As to faith not being "right" or "wrong"...well, that's correct per se, however faith is an epistemic stance. I find it appropriate in some cases, and inappropriate in others. Beliefs about the origin of the universe should not be taken on faith (my opinion). The scientific method is a superior method to taking things on faith.
Quote:
halfbloodprincess:
and about freedom of speech, no i am open to that. just make sure that you know when to just keep your [opinions] to yourself and when you can talk. freedom of speech about views on capitalism, death penalty, abortion, yeah they are fine. but you dont have to tell people that their beliefs are wrong, because you could be hurting them.
NICK:
Tell me halfbloodprincess, if I'm not insulting someone or threatening someone, then why should I keep my opinion to myself?
I'd like to know if my beliefs are wrong because I care about the truth, not what makes me feel good (or I try to anyway). I don't think I said anything like "halfbloodprincess you are totally wrong and I am right" I just said that I believed you're severely mistaken. But I admit that I could be wrong and you could be right. I was not trying to hurt you.
I think a good way to respond to
"I think you're severely mistaken"
would be:
"What am I mistaken about? let's chat about it and it may be that I AM mistaken, or you could be mistaken, or both of us could be wrong.... or right in our own way"
I like to learn halfbloodprincess, and I'm not here to do any "god bashing". That gets tired after a while.
Cheers,
Nick _________________ "People are stupid; given the proper motivation almost anyone will believe almost anything"
-WFR
If you have questions, I have answers. Believe it or not I know the bible and the Christian faith pretty well.
no id rather find out elsewhere.
Quote:
Beliefs about the origin of the universe should not be taken on faith (my opinion). The scientific method is a superior method to taking things on faith.
who said its superior? not that i dont believe that the sun is the center of the solar system and its the earth... but who said that its superior anyway?
scientists? you can bet they will.
Quote:
Tell me halfbloodprincess, if I'm not insulting someone or threatening someone, then why should I keep my opinion to myself?
if you must know, religion is pretty much a sensitive topic and you seem to keep saying that we christians are mistaken. you may, or you may not. but since you sound like it, you might either want to drop the topic, or else try a different way of talking about religion.
Quote:
I'd like to know if my beliefs are wrong because I care about the truth, not what makes me feel good (or I try to anyway). I don't think I said anything like "halfbloodprincess you are totally wrong and I am right" I just said that I believed you're severely mistaken. But I admit that I could be wrong and you could be right. I was not trying to hurt you.
fine then, i dont suppose you are. but there is this thing called faith and it isnt questioned by proofs or what. tahts why faith = belief, not faith = knowledge. because knowledge is somethign supported by facts. faith is baseless... its just your belief that there is a God, there is no God, or what.
Quote:
I think a good way to respond to
"I think you're severely mistaken"
would be:
"What am I mistaken about? let's chat about it and it may be that I AM mistaken, or you could be mistaken, or both of us could be wrong.... or right in our own way"
i dont believe i said "you are severely mistaken." please quote it so that i may remember.
im not really intersted in chatting about my faith questions or the possible flaws in my faith. we could be wrong, i could be wrong, you could be right, i could be right, you could be wrong... it matters not. just dont try to impose atheism. _________________
Lupin-Fanatic:
I'm not going to take place in this heated discussion because of previous political and religious talks with friends that stopped being friends.
NICK:
"Heated"? This? I don't know about that. Perhaps Real™ friends would unerstand that everyone is not going to agree on everything. I've been called a "rabid atheist" by some people. Yet I have plenty of Christian and Islamic friends. I avoid hasty generalizations and instead try to treat people as individuals.
In any case; arguing is FUN!! It's not about who "wins" (it's very difficult to get someone to change their convictions about "sensitive" topics, but it happens), but about who can present more evidence, and use a logical approach. But that's just my opinion, I suppose.
Cheers,
Nick
Ok ok, but please don't bite off my head again on another discussion! I have actually broken up with friends because of political/religious discussions and it was not fun. And to be honest really, not to offend anyone, but I am infact a Atheist and I believe everyone has their own opinions and rights.
Right, completely off-topic moment. I'm leaving. _________________ Still here, and still a Lupin Fanatic.
"Always bring a banana to a party. Bananas are good." - 10th Doctor
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