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brook251
Joined: Mar 2, 2008
Posts: 5
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 Posted: March 2, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: Is the 5th book really neccesary? |
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| I don't think i'm the first one to say this but couldn't Harry have showed the Ministry of Magic his encounter with Voldermort through a pensive? That would eliminate the need for book 5 in the first place! What do you think? |
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Bella Black
Joined: Jan 19, 2008
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Well, in regarding to that yes but Sirius's death was important and the occlemency lessons with snape and the order of the phoenix in general was important for the 6th and 7th books so...
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lozinja
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: |
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i suppose there were no BIG things that happened in book 5 that needed to happen for book seven, but without book five book seven probably wouldn't make that much sense.
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zengrenouille
Joined: Aug 1, 2007
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Is the 5th book really neccesary? |
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| brook251 wrote: |
| I don't think i'm the first one to say this but couldn't Harry have showed the Ministry of Magic his encounter with Voldermort through a pensive? That would eliminate the need for book 5 in the first place! What do you think? |
I have wondered whether they could just use memories myself, but the more I though about it the more I realized that memories may be considered insubmissable(SP?) in court. As we have seen in the sixth book, memories can be tampered with. Also, some people may remember things differently than others, and that fact may affect a person's memory in the pensieve. Looking at memories in a pensieve is a great thing, but I know that the brain is an amazing thing, and I wouldn't want to trust my enemy's memory at my trial. Also, we can manipulate things to look one way when they happened another way. Take Riddles diary for example.
I think that they would have just accused Harry of either manipulating his memory or else of being disturbed and inventing things in his own brain to be one way subconsciously.
I didn't explain myself very well. Outside of the memory theory, Jo used this book to show Harry's angst. She also used it to introduce us to a part of the wizarding world that we had not seen. We had never seen all of these wizard banded together to bring down the dark side. It was an important book to show the brotherhood amongst the wizards and the rebellion the was forming under the surface. Jo would not have been able to show us that in that last two books, because there were more pinpointed issues to deal with. Most of those books Harry spent alone with Dumbledore or Ron and Hermione trying to figure things out.
This book also showed us just how corrupt the ministry was. We never saw it before, because Harry never realized.
There were probably a million other things that Jo was getting across that I didn't think of right now. This book was extremely important, and it is my favorite one.
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bery26
Joined: Dec 21, 2007
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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^ brilliant answer!
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Interficio
Joined: Feb 22, 2008
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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The 5th book as well as its companion movie were really the best. Although they may not have been necessary it did reveal that voldemort was back and it established the order
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Sazari
Joined: Feb 24, 2008
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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The 5th book as well as its companion movie were really the best. Although they may not have been necessary it did reveal that voldemort was back and it established the order.
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Brilliant. I totally agree. |
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XxJennxX
Joined: Feb 29, 2008
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Of course the fifth book was necessary to me they were all necessary. It wouldn't be the same to not have the fifth book. Try reading them all again as if it was your first time reading the books and missing out the fifth book, you wouldn't have any idea of what was going on.
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brook251
Joined: Mar 2, 2008
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It would be better if Rowling at least mentioned the pensive even as an inadmissable evidence. It's just the thought of it; what would have happened if Harry showed the Ministry or just Hogwart students his memory of Voldermort. And even if the Ministry suspected foul play, Harry could have showed them his memory when Fudge came into the Infirmary right after Voldermort's return because I don't think you can tamper with a memory that fast. I'm not saying the 5'th book is not wholly unneccisary, there were some facts that were revealed (like the prophecy) and it was a great book, possibly the best, but it's just a flaw that I've been mulling over for a while now and was wondering if there was something I missed that could have contradicted it. |
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bery26
Joined: Dec 21, 2007
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Harry could have showed them his memory when Fudge came into the Infirmary right after Voldermort's return because I don't think you can tamper with a memory that fast |
they still would have used it as an excuse
i think the 5th book was extremely important in the series, its where u see more how much corruption there can be in a gobernment, even in the wizarding one
its also a very important book for harry's character, we see him feeling emotions he havent felt before, specially negative ones, and we see him finally reacting as a normal adolescent to all that had been happening in all the previous books and that was happening at that moment, where he never complained before, we see him far more human in this one
it also contains one of the most important deaths in the whole series that deeply marked harry
we also discover the prophecy and its contents, we begin to understnad dumbledore and his motives for the things he does
its really strange hearing someone say that the longest book in the series is unnecesary 
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GinnyX
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| Posted: March 2, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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The fifth book was completely necassary.
First of all, they couldn't have just skipped over his fifth year of school.
Second of all, we learn more about the story than just memories. We learn a lot about the ministry and it's innerworkings. It sets up the backstory of the part in DH when the trio invade the Ministry to steal back the locket.
We discover a lot about the Marauders, including how they interact with each other even nowadays. Harry loses someone else he loves and Ron almost loses his father, bringing the war a little closer to home for Ron and his family. It stopped being about Harry and his struggles with Voldemort with just his friends helping. It became much more of a personal struggle for Ron and his siblings, too.
Harry teaches the students how to fight, which becomes very helpful in DH when many of those students stay or return for that final battle.
The real story of what happened that fateful night of the third task comes to light thanks to Rita's article thanks to Luna, who we also meet in this story. Luna herself brings much to the rest of the story. She help Olivander stay alive by being his companion while the are being kept at the Malfoy Manor. Through her we meet Xenophilius who introduces us to the diadem, the Deathly Hallows, and is also the source of the Quibbler, which not only runs Harry's story, but backs him up when others doubt him.
We also get a sneak peak of at least one of the Horcruxes, and the two-way mirror that save their lives when Aberforth sends for Dobby.
I could give more reasons, but I'm sure you get the idea by now. The fifth book was there more to just show us memories. The fifth book was part of the whole story and led us through Half-Blood Prince into Deathly Hallows.
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The Potions Master
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| GinnyX wrote: |
The fifth book was completely necassary.
First of all, they couldn't have just skipped over his fifth year of school.
Second of all, we learn more about the story than just memories. We learn a lot about the ministry and it's innerworkings. It sets up the backstory of the part in DH when the trio invade the Ministry to steal back the locket.
We discover a lot about the Marauders, including how they interact with each other even nowadays. Harry loses someone else he loves and Ron almost loses his father, bringing the war a little closer to home for Ron and his family. It stopped being about Harry and his struggles with Voldemort with just his friends helping. It became much more of a personal struggle for Ron and his siblings, too.
Harry teaches the students how to fight, which becomes very helpful in DH when many of those students stay or return for that final battle.
The real story of what happened that fateful night of the third task comes to light thanks to Rita's article thanks to Luna, who we also meet in this story. Luna herself brings much to the rest of the story. She help Olivander stay alive by being his companion while the are being kept at the Malfoy Manor. Through her we meet Xenophilius who introduces us to the diadem, the Deathly Hallows, and is also the source of the Quibbler, which not only runs Harry's story, but backs him up when others doubt him.
We also get a sneak peak of at least one of the Horcruxes, and the two-way mirror that save their lives when Aberforth sends for Dobby.
I could give more reasons, but I'm sure you get the idea by now. The fifth book was there more to just show us memories. The fifth book was part of the whole story and led us through Half-Blood Prince into Deathly Hallows. |
Excellent explanation.
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Vasaver
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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what is this talk that the 5th book wasnt needed1
introduction to some new magic, it showed how corrupt the ministry was, how harry was changing and getting fusterated with the world around him, the prophecy. there is so much this book offered!
and it left us all with unanswered questions. it was also a plot twister too. we knew that harry had to kill voldemort or voldemort would kill him. we then knew that harry was pretty much alone in the fight against him and no organization could help him. 5th book pushed the plot foreward more than the fourth did in my eyes.
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Interficio
Joined: Feb 22, 2008
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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with this logic you could argue that books 1-6 aren't needed and before long you've eliminated the whole series. You see each book has details that are needed otherwise JK would not write them.
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ray_30579
Joined: Feb 1, 2008
Location: Somewhere in South-America
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Man, all these people with negative comments. Try creating a whole world to go along with your stories. Even if and I say IF JKR made some mistakes, so what. She's only human. |
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switchvsregular
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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are you stupid?
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brook251
Joined: Mar 2, 2008
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. I think I should have created a different topic name. I admit, the 5th book is important but would have been a lot shorter and less interesting without the ministry interfering with Hogwarts and all. No, I'm not stupid. It was a great book but I think JK Rowling should not have overlooked this mistake.
If you were living in the wizard world, showing your memory in a pensive is like evidence in a court scene. I bet Harry could have been cleared of all charges by the ministry in the beggining of the book if he had shown them the dementors from his memory, although they would probably not believe him.
I think everybody is getting the wrong message. The 5th book is nesseccary. I just made a mistake naming the title. I was just pointing out a mistake and asking what might have happened in the 5th book if Harry had shown his memory of voldermort to Fudge. |
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bery26
Joined: Dec 21, 2007
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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oh lol yeah what ur saying now makes more sense
but memories can be always tampered with and dumbledore is abilitied enough to have done it quickly
also, i think it was very good the whole ministry interiering thing, it made the book very interesting in how organizations and the government is deficient and corrupt even in the magical world
i like it, its a very political book
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GinnyX
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| Posted: March 3, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
GinnyX
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| brook251 wrote: |
Ok. I think I should have created a different topic name. I admit, the 5th book is important but would have been a lot shorter and less interesting without the ministry interfering with Hogwarts and all. No, I'm not stupid. It was a great book but I think JK Rowling should not have overlooked this mistake.
If you were living in the wizard world, showing your memory in a pensive is like evidence in a court scene. I bet Harry could have been cleared of all charges by the ministry in the beggining of the book if he had shown them the dementors from his memory, although they would probably not believe him.
I think everybody is getting the wrong message. The 5th book is nesseccary. I just made a mistake naming the title. I was just pointing out a mistake and asking what might have happened in the 5th book if Harry had shown his memory of voldermort to Fudge. |
Memories can be altered, though, and therefore unreliable. Slughorn altered his memory of Riddle asking him about Horcruxes.
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Mariana
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| Posted: March 4, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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5th book was necessary.
Just think for a moment.If Sirius haven't died,Harry would never get his house in the first place and Harry,Ron and Hermione in that case, wouldn't find out what means RAB on that false horcrucs.
So.......in simple words.....Voldy would still be alive.
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Vitadare
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| Posted: March 9, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the fifth book was necessary. Let me tell you, by the time I got my copy of the sixth book, I had already forgotten what had happened in the fifth book. I was sitting through the first five chapters or so thinking "WTF? Sirius is DEAD? When the @&#! did THIS happen? I think I'd remember something like THIS!"
Then I reread the passage from the fifth book, and still refused to believe that Sirius was dead. It wasn't until the end of the seventh book that I finally believed he was dead. I still want to know what's in that curtain, though.
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bery26
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| Posted: March 10, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Let me tell you, by the time I got my copy of the sixth book, I had already forgotten what had happened in the fifth book. I was sitting through the first five chapters or so thinking "WTF? Sirius is DEAD? When the @&#! did THIS happen? I think I'd remember something like THIS!" |
WOW 
how could u forget about something like that?!
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zengrenouille
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| Posted: March 10, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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